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Post by messianicmama on Mar 21, 2013 13:48:21 GMT -8
For most Christians this is no longer an issue, but my husband and I have been wrestling with it since we got married. We were raised thinking it was fine, but we've come to question that. In the  , the two most common forms of birth control of that day- castration and the smashing of the testicles-.were forbidden. Also, children were always seen as blessings, never a negative thing. I know that there is variance in Judaism. The story of Onan is sited to forbid pull out and condoms, and the idea that as long as you replace yourselves (have 2 kids) you're fulfilled the obligation to be fruitful and multiply. I view the Onan story as really forbidding greed and deception in that Onan married his brothers wife with the expectation he would give her a son that would be named for his brother and would inherit his property, etc. Anyway, I'm mostly of the mind that condoms are okay, but I worry about the "rightness of preventing my body from functioning as Gd intended. Thus, to me, is what we're not supposed to do and the reason (or one reason) castration and smashing are forbidden. Also, I think we need to change our heart and attitude towards children. We need to view then as blessings always. Even if they are unplanned we need to choose to feel blessed Nowadays children are negative consequences, life-ruiners, inconveniences and problems. We need to stop taking about them and thinking about them in that way. What do you think? |
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Post by alon on Mar 21, 2013 14:11:53 GMT -8
I'd tend to agree with you, but like you am uncertain about some things.
My wife almost died with our last child, so I chose to get a vasectomy on the doctors recommendation. Some would equate this with castration for the purposes of the law. I don't know. It was before I even knew of things Messianic, but I'd probably make the same call today. However, like Rabbi Reuel said elsewhere, give it ten years and who knows.
Birth control pills and even the elective surgeries to prevent pregnancy with no extenuating circumstances are difficult calls. Might be an enlightening discussion.
Dan C
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Post by yiska on Mar 21, 2013 14:39:52 GMT -8
i'll just state my two cents. very direct... I don't agree with it.
Why???
if it is unplanned like mine was both times, I consider that a blessing, but if you don't want to have children, then don't have sex. That is the main purpose of having sex with your spouse , not only to enjoy each other but to have children as well.
if you get pregnant , than it is G-d's way of giving you a gift, its as simple as that.
nowadays people have sex regardless of what sex is truly about.
G-d made sex for marriage between a man and a woman.
Birth control to me is like saying, I can have as much sex as I want and be on birth control; without having to worry about getting pregnant and or a guy having to wear a condom.
Just thinking how G-d feels about all this mess we are living in???
Makes my stomach turn.
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Post by Micha'el on Mar 24, 2013 16:14:44 GMT -8
I agree with our last quote that said "I wonder how G_d feels about all of this". When we truly set aside our own desires and wants, it is then that He can speak to us and we can hear His heart for us. Then and only then should we make choices that have everlasting effects.
Micha'el
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Post by messianicmama on Mar 24, 2013 18:48:44 GMT -8
I agree with our last quote that said "I wonder how G_d feels about all of this". When we truly set aside our own desires and wants, it is then that He can speak to us and we can hear His heart for us. Then and only then should we make choices that have everlasting effects. Micha'el The trouble is, I know people who claim Gd doesn't care about birth control, others who claim he only cares about certain types and others who say it's all bad. They believe Gd has revealed this to them. I believe we can find scriptural passages that we can use to make inferences about his feelings on it. Gd has not given me done divine revelation about it, but I still think it I'd an issue of right or wrong and not personal feeling. |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 24, 2013 19:23:48 GMT -8
I agree with our last quote that said "I wonder how G_d feels about all of this". When we truly set aside our own desires and wants, it is then that He can speak to us and we can hear His heart for us. Then and only then should we make choices that have everlasting effects. Micha'el The trouble is, I know people who claim Gd doesn't care about birth control, others who claim he only cares about certain types and others who say it's all bad. They believe Gd has revealed this to them. I believe we can find scriptural passages that we can use to make inferences about his feelings on it. Gd has not given me done divine revelation about it, but I still think it I'd an issue of right or wrong ABCs nor personal feeling. Most Birth Control pills and IUD can cause abortions, so I see these as obvious rule breakers. I think it is a subject that should be prayed about for every family out there. It is a big issue within the bible and should be treated with much respect. |
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Post by rivkah on Oct 28, 2015 19:41:26 GMT -8
I don't believe in artificial birth control but I know of several families who use natural family planning which seem to work for them very well.
What is your viewpoint on this particular type of "birth control"?
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lou
Junior Member
married 15 yrs
Posts: 89 
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Post by lou on Oct 28, 2015 22:26:59 GMT -8
I don't see vasectomy ' s as castration because it can be undone. Same with a women with tied tubes. We can't always have n raise as many children now as (were a blessing)then. Sex is more than about babies. Sex is loving as much as you can your mate. It is worship to Adonai.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 29, 2015 4:56:28 GMT -8
I don't believe in artificial birth control but I know of several families who use natural family planning which seem to work for them very well. What is your viewpoint on this particular type of "birth control"? I was Catholic for a long while and NFP is the birth control they suggest. I personally don't think its unbiblical because it doesn't disrupt what G-d has naturally put into place. Also, from what I have heard, if people followed it well it is effective. However, if you are trusting of G-d and unified as husband and wife in His plans for you as a family, you may find that even this is unnecessary. I personally think that is the optimal marriage place to be, but I am certainly not in a position to judge. It just seems you are in a good position to start out with the optimal goal if open to and trusting G-d and His will as a couple.  |
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Post by jimmie on Oct 29, 2015 8:39:37 GMT -8
Malichi 2:12The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth [it] with good will at your hand. 14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet [is] she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for [one] covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
This passage deals manly with divorce but notice the answer to why God made two into one: “That he might seek a godly seed.” So the purpose of marriage is godly seed. From the beginning is has been so. Go forth and multiply. Another thread dealt with “nidda”, if you go back to those scriptures presented in that discussion, you will find that there is a 7 day cleansing after a 7 day flow which bring you to the 14th day of the woman’s cycle, which is the day of ovulation. Thus the man and woman were to come together at the woman’s fertile time. The laws of “nidda” were set up specifically to insure conception. When my wife and I were dating (fornicating), we used the knowledge of the ovulation time to avoid her becoming with child. We dated for 3.5 years without any children. After marriage, we started trying to follow the biblical mandate. We had 12 children roughly one every other year.
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Post by alon on Oct 29, 2015 10:59:05 GMT -8
Malichi 2:12The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth [it] with good will at your hand. 14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet [is] she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for [one] covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. This passage deals mainly with divorce but notice the answer to why God made two into one: “That he might seek a godly seed.” ... So the purpose of marriage is godly seed. From the beginning is has been so.
13 And this second thing you do. You cover the Lord's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14 But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth. 16 “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”The second thing was to unjustly put a wife away without children. This would imply not leaving her with a livelihood, as well as having withheld intimacy (sexual and otherwise) from her during the marriage. I see no command there to have a huge family. ... Another thread dealt with “nidda”, if you go back to those scriptures presented in that discussion, you will find that there is a 7 day cleansing after a 7 day flow which bring you to the 14th day of the woman’s cycle, which is the day of ovulation. Thus the man and woman were to come together at the woman’s fertile time. The laws of “nidda” were set up specifically to insure conception.
I also don't see every Biblical family being as large as you suggest. And in the religious families I've seen in my lifetime who had 10 or more children, the women did not cope well. They were overwhelmed, tired, listless and with deadened eyes. One family I knew had 12, and she was almost catatonic. The men weren't doing much better. All needed the assistance of church and government just to get by. In all cases it was the husband who pushed this idea on his wife on religious grounds. Maybe your family is different, but I can tell you that if it is, that is not the norm. Since in all cases it was the older siblings raising the younger, I fail to see how this produces Godly children. Too many times too many children results in the husband doing exactly what your passage prohibits and leaving the wife and kids to go on welfare while he falls away from his faith.
I know that from time to time you read news reports about large families doing wonderful things together. But these are news precisely for the reason that they are the exception, not the norm. They are never the whole story either. Some may be called to raise large families, and if so that is great. But I would not put this onus on every family on your interpretation of scripture. Especially when so much evidence exists that the result is usually Godless lives lived in poverty and squalor.
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Oct 29, 2015 14:22:35 GMT -8
alon, I don’t have a problem with your quoting more scripture to get a better context. As I stated divorce was the primary concern in the scripture quoted. Even in your translation it appears that God is seeking “Godly offspring.” From the union of a man and woman.
Leviticus 15:19-28 appears to show two separate counts of 7 days. One is during the flow (days of separation) which can go beyond the 7 days. See verse 25. The second count of 7 days starts after the flow starts as indicated in verse 28. Also notice in verse 24 that a man is unclean for 7 days after getting the flowers on him. As a side note separate beds are not required. Since the man lay with her during her flow.
I am the youngest of 13 children (my dad had two wives at the same time. The two wives met when he had a car wreck). Once the local pastor was trying to enlist our neighbor (my adopted grandfather) in efforts to get us children into church, his reply was, “No way those children are the best behaved in the neighborhood and I don’t want those brats at your church messing them up.” Most of those “brats” were only children. As for poverty and squalor, the only running water we had was, when I ran to get it. I have got meals, clothing, and toys out of others garbage. I grew up a pagan but was never as “Godless” as those only children. Oh, I almost forgot, I can remember the day my 13 year old sister told me that she was going to be my mother (some time after the wreck). And truth be told, most of the time she was my father too, because daddy was gone weeks at a time working construction jobs. I guess he never heard of welfare. I can’t remember any churches beating a path to our door to give us anything either. I do remember the poor blacks bringing half a hog that they butchered to us to make a payment on a debt. But my dad would only take one shoulder for full payment of the debt.
Large families are no more or less likely to divorce than small or medium families. The real question here is who has the right to open and close wombs. Did the matriarchs plead for their wombs to be opened or to be closed?
Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Why would they say that? Because of coming judgement. Why do we say that today?
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Post by alon on Oct 29, 2015 16:37:22 GMT -8
Comp just dumped a detailed reply. People can make up their wn minds.
Dan C
Edit: if anyone hears something whizz by, it's probably my laptop. Folded down, I'm pretty sure at this point it would make a better Frisbee than a typewriter. Just sayin' ...
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, the two most common forms of birth control of that day- castration and the smashing of the testicles-.were forbidden. Also, children were always seen as blessings, never a negative thing. I know that there is variance in Judaism. The story of Onan is sited to forbid pull out and condoms, and the idea that as long as you replace yourselves (have 2 kids) you're fulfilled the obligation to be fruitful and multiply. 
