kip
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Post by kip on Mar 5, 2013 21:48:55 GMT -8
I would like to know what the viewpoint on exorcism or deliverance is in this community, as i know most religions all seem to have their own viewpoint on the subject. I could only find this area of the forum that seemed to be suitable for posting such a question.
I have studied many different works, and have read a lot of the subject but i would like to know how you folks look at the subject.
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kip
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Post by kip on Mar 6, 2013 21:24:42 GMT -8
I see this has been read by a few but no comments so far. So i shall attempt to start it off with what i have studied and know to my best attempts: Exorcism is a ritual of power performed in order to drive an evil spirit, whether demonic or ghostly, from a possessed person, location, or object. The Christian scholar Origen credits Jews with a special talent for exorcising demons (Against Celsus, book 4). The first allusion to exorcism appears in the Bible, in the youth narratives of David (l Samuel). But while the biblical David seemed to be able to effect a temporary expulsion of Saul's evil spirit using music, the book of Tobit contains the first explicit description of an (informal) exorcism. Josephus recounts incidents of possession and exorcism in his Antiquities of the Jews (2, 5, 8, 45-48). In his description, exorcism involved burning herbs and immersing the possessed person in water. The New Testament also reports Jesus to have performed numerous exorcisms of demonic spirits in first-century Palestine (Matthew 12; Mark 5, 6, 13; Luke 8). The Dead Sea Scrolls include several exorcism incantations and formulae, mostly directed against disease-causing demons. The DSS Psalms collection in particular (11Q5) has "four songs for the charming of demons with music." People who fell under the influence of false prophets and mediums were thought to also require the exorcism of possessing evil spirits (the false prophets and mediums themselves were subject to death, a sure cure for most possessions; see Zechariah 13). The Midrash mentions the procedure, though at times in a tongue-in-cheek manner (Pesikta de-Rav Kahannah 1:4, Numbers Rabbah 19.8). An extended story in Leviticus Rabbah 24:3 tells of the exorcism of a well of water involving iron implements and shouted formulae. Shimon bar Yohai exorcises a demon that assists him in getting the cooperation of Caesar in lifting an oppressive decree against the Jews. In a medieval Midrash, Hanina ben Dosa is credited with exorcising an evil spirit haunting an old woman. Intriguingly, in the last two accounts, the Sages exorcise demons, even though each of the evil spirits actually behaved in a beneficial fashion. By the late Middle Ages, whole texts dedicated to demons started to appear. From what i have read the key to any Jewish exorcism is having a truly pious man, an abba, baal shem, rebbe, or a rabbi, conduct the ceremony. This is in contrast with Mesopotamian and Greco-Roman practices, which generally use a physician. The process usually starts with the exorcist ritually purifying himself, either according to traditional Jewish practice, or by special means, such as anointing himself with water and oil. Many exorcisms were public events, either performed in a synagogue, or at least requiring the presence of a minyan, a minimum of ten men that normally makes up a ritual quorum (Divrei Yosef). Various somatic symptoms (swellings, paralysis, markings, and bodily sensations) were sought in the victim for diagnostic purposes (Sha'ar ha-Gilgulim). Most techniques include interviewing the demon and/or dybbuk, taking a personal history, as it were, in order to understand what is motivating the spirit and so better effect the removal (Shalshelet Ira-Kabbalah). Jewish exorcisms are usually "liturgical," using protective passages from the Psalms and other sacred texts. Antidemonic psalms have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, though whether they were used in actual exorcism is impossible to know. The same idea resurfaces in the Middle Ages, with Psalms 10, 91, and 127 particularly being lauded for their power against evil spirits. Sefer ha-Gilgulim (by Hayyim Vital, 16th-17th centuries) instructs the patient to recite Psalms 20, 90, and Ana B'koah, an acrostic prayer made from a name of God. Rituals accompanying the recitations can include sounding a shofar or the use of other Jewish objects, such as candles,  scrolls, kvittles (written requests for spiritual guidance, healing, or miraculous intervention, sent to a Hasidic master), tefillin (phylacteries), or lamps (Sha'ar Ruah ha-Kodesh 89; Ma'aseh shel Ruah be-Kehillah). |
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Post by alon on Mar 6, 2013 22:02:36 GMT -8
... People who fell under the influence of false prophets and mediums were thought to also require the exorcism of possessing evil spirits (the false prophets and mediums themselves were subject to death, a sure cure for most possessions; see Zechariah 13). So then, those of us who've sat under mainstream teachings all or lives need exorcism?  This standard doesn't bode well for pastors either!  You are probably talking about the Babylonian Talmud here. I'm no scholar but what I've heard is that the Jerusalem Talmud doesn't deal much at all with demons and exorcisms, especially compared to the Babylonian Talmud. Why the interest in exorcisms, if I may ask? Dan C |
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kip
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Post by kip on Mar 7, 2013 12:03:43 GMT -8
This will open your eyes: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVSN7ykBXAIt is very scary how the enemy is working through the churches and people claiming its the Holy Spirit when its clearly not. |
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kip
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Post by kip on Mar 7, 2013 12:20:33 GMT -8
You are probably talking about the Babylonian Talmud here. I'm no scholar but what I've heard is that the Jerusalem Talmud doesn't deal much at all with demons and exorcisms, especially compared to the Babylonian Talmud.
Why the interest in exorcisms, if I may ask?
Dan C
Yes i was quoting from the Babylonian Talmud. The reason i am interested in exorsims or as i prefer to call it deliverance is mainly because i have studied demonology for many years, It is a vital part of being christian to know your enemy and be able to deliver others. It is a dying practice sadly most people have little or no knowledge whatsoever on the subject and may not even know how to handle a possessed person if they ever come into contact with one. I have read many books on pastors that have come into contact with possessed people in the church and have had a terrible time helping them out due to little or no knowledge, some even have admitted to not having strong enough faith to cast demons out. A great example is the book The Day Satan Called by Bill Scott.
And we must always remember:
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
It is essential to have this knowledge and know how to spot evil as it is not always easy to see at times, A person can be possessed and may not even know it. Not all spirits work in the ways we think aka screaming, spitting, going cold, eyes rolling back in their head. I have seen some people that appear to be totaly normal and have spirit cast out with little or no fighting at all and some may react violently it depends on the spirit most of the time and how long it has had a claim to that person.
Yeshua sent us fourth into the world as He was sent fourth (John 20:21), to do the works He did (John 14:12), and He gave us the authority to do the work at hand (Mark 13:34).
What does it take to drive out demons? Authority! As we can see in Mark 1:27, "And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him." As we can see in Luke 4:35, Yeshua was not afraid to exercise His authority either, "And Yeshua rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not."
Luke 10:17-19, "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power (translates to AUTHORITY) to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
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Post by alon on Mar 8, 2013 16:55:50 GMT -8
This will open your eyes: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVSN7ykBXAIt is very scary how the enemy is working through the churches and people claiming its the Holy Spirit when its clearly not. I watched part of the clip, and to say I'm skeptical of what was happening in these "exorcisms" would be too mild a statement. I used to do martial arts pretty seriously, and I see a lot of the same fraudulent practices there I used to see in clips of proponents of "no touch knockouts" and similar garbage. The worst part is many or even most of the people involved actually think it is legit. In fact, instilling belief in them is the necessary prerequisite for the movement to work in the first place. Others, craving attention, will readily lie and fake it. I am having to contend with one like this in the AoG church where I regularly worship. I am certain he faked a healing, and he wants to make me a part of his lie. I won't challenge him and call him a liar unless it becomes necessary, but neither will I be part of what I believe to be a lie. He knows I know as well, and it is causing tension. If this is where God has called you, then by all means we need people who seek and advocate for the truth and who are willing to enlighten us when necessary. But this is an area of study which attracts the unscrupulous, so be careful where you place your trust. In the love of Yeshua, Dan C |
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kip
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Post by kip on Mar 8, 2013 19:23:50 GMT -8
This will open your eyes: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVSN7ykBXAIt is very scary how the enemy is working through the churches and people claiming its the Holy Spirit when its clearly not. I watched part of the clip, and to say I'm skeptical of what was happening in these "exorcisms" would be too mild a statement. I used to do martial arts pretty seriously, and I see a lot of the same fraudulent practices there I used to see in clips of proponents of "no touch knockouts" and similar garbage. The worst part is many or even most of the people involved actually think it is legit. In fact, instilling belief in them is the necessary prerequisite for the movement to work in the first place. Others, craving attention, will readily lie and fake it. I am having to contend with one like this in the AoG church where I regularly worship. I am certain he faked a healing, and he wants to make me a part of his lie. I won't challenge him and call him a liar unless it becomes necessary, but neither will I be part of what I believe to be a lie. He knows I know as well, and it is causing tension. If this is where God has called you, then by all means we need people who seek and advocate for the truth and who are willing to enlighten us when necessary. But this is an area of study which attracts the unscrupulous, so be careful where you place your trust. In the love of Yeshua, Dan C I agree this area of study requires one to have strong faith in G-d. One that is weak minded may easily be manipulated and i have seen it happen before. I know there is nothing more powerful than G-ds word and i study it daily before any other studies i engage in. I have been on a mission for some time warning others of spiritual traps and false doctrines. It scares me as to how many people fall into these false doctrines and false teachings, may it be prosperity ministry, or new age influenced doctrine, to yoga or "spiritual healing". I have based my studies on the enemies tactics and how it can destroy churches and families, i feel i have a gift of strong discernment, and things just pop out at me when i know something is not right or not of G-d. I have witnessed friends and family fall prey to such things over the years some mocked me when i warned them only to find out later on that i was correct that is was not of G-d. As it is said one is to test the spirits, G-d always will let you know what is from him and what is not. |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 11, 2013 19:12:36 GMT -8
I think one must be careful not to let such ideas rule our minds. You already made the comment about not having a weak mind but are we the greatest judges when it comes to our own mind? I am against ritualistic exorcism. I don't find it in the scripture and I think it can take on a carnal ideology quickly. We need to be careful to always listen for the Fathers instruction and if that instruction is to deliver a person then we are to follow through with His word. If we are walking in the power of the Ruach then we have the Father within us who can break down even the biggest of walls. I don't think we need to wasting our time studying such things on demonic activity. If we keep our eyes on Yeshua we have every tool we need with us every step we take. These things can quickly alter a person's path and change their lives into the same darkness they tried to study for the "upper hand" We are not commanded to look into evil but we are commanded to not pursue things that are evil. Here are some verses that I think help on the subject. 1 Peter 3:8-18 8 Finally, all of you, be one in mind and feeling; love as brothers; and be compassionate and humble-minded, 9 not repaying evil with evil or insult with insult, but, on the contrary, with blessing. For it is to this that you have been called, so that you may receive a blessing. 10 For "Whoever wants to love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit, 11 turn from evil and do good, seek peace and chase after it. 12 For ADONAI keeps his eyes on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers; but the face of ADONAI is against those who do evil things." 13 For who will hurt you if you become zealots for what is good? 14 But even if you do suffer for being righteous, you are blessed! Moreover, don't fear what they fear or be disturbed, 15 but treat the Messiah as holy, as Lord in your hearts;s while remaining always ready to give a reasoned answer to anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you - yet with humility and fear, 16 keeping your conscience clear, so that when you are spoken against, those who abuse the good behavior flowing from your union with the Messiah may be put to  . 17 For if God has in fact willed that you should suffer, it is better that you suffer for doing what is good than for doing what is evil. 18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit; So if G-d is with us who can be against us? Who do we have to fear? Why waste our time with such fear but rather spend our time seeking what is good. Ephesians 6:12 12 For we are not struggling against human beings, but against the rulers, authorities and cosmic powers governing this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm. Our King Yeshua is within us we have what the enemy fears living within us. If we have such light within us then the darkness will flee. If we have such light within then that light will shine onto the darkness and it will be exposed and flee. I honestly would warn anyone thinking it is ok to search out darkness to fight darkness. Fight darkness with light, you don't have to study demonic activity to do so. |
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Post by Micha'el on Mar 12, 2013 10:13:05 GMT -8
Good points made Yedidyah! I have waited to comment until now. Of all the gifts and callings of G_d I don't believe exercising demons or evil spirits is ever mentioned in the Word of Adonai. So true that we need to be about studying His Word to know how to respond in all situations, always remaining calm and under His control. Show me in His Word and I'll believe it! Dan 11:32b: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]. (have wrought) Micha'el  Choose to be on His side. We win! |
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kip
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Post by kip on Mar 13, 2013 11:20:18 GMT -8
Good points made Yedidyah! I have waited to comment until now. Of all the gifts and callings of G_d I don't believe exercising demons or evil spirits is ever mentioned in the Word of Adonai. So true that we need to be about studying His Word to know how to respond in all situations, always remaining calm and under His control. Show me in His Word and I'll believe it! Dan 11:32b: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]. (have wrought) Micha'el Choose to be on His side. We win! There are many times Yeshua speaks of expelling demons from the inflicted in the Word, some examples: Luke 4:33-37 the biggest example and, Mark 9:28-29, Luke 9:1, Mark 9:38, Demons possessed men, women, a boy, and a girl (Matt. 4:24; Luke. 8:2; Luke. 9:38-39; Mark. 7:25). Yedidyah i can't agree with you more in your post, i am afraid you got me wrong about studying "demonology" i do not study the occult or demons themselves lol, i study the Word, i may read books published by other priests or pastors on the subject here and there but i never delve into occult works or things that are NOT of G-d for as you said it can be a slippery slope for one to head down that path. However, the scriptures teach that if we resist the devil, he will flee (Jas. 4: 7). As long as we are pure of spirit, and follow our Lords Commandments we have no need to worry ourselves, but i speak of those who are not however to those that need help, or seek help and are unable to find it. This is the reason we put on the full armor of G-d to keep ourselves strong against the dark one and to free those that may be oppressed by these unclean spirits. |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 14, 2013 12:33:09 GMT -8
Good points made Yedidyah! I have waited to comment until now. Of all the gifts and callings of G_d I don't believe exercising demons or evil spirits is ever mentioned in the Word of Adonai. So true that we need to be about studying His Word to know how to respond in all situations, always remaining calm and under His control. Show me in His Word and I'll believe it! Dan 11:32b: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]. (have wrought) Micha'el Choose to be on His side. We win! There are many times Yeshua speaks of expelling demons from the inflicted in the Word, some examples: Luke 4:33-37 the biggest example and, Mark 9:28-29, Luke 9:1, Mark 9:38, Demons possessed men, women, a boy, and a girl (Matt. 4:24; Luke. 8:2; Luke. 9:38-39; Mark. 7:25). Yedidyah i can't agree with you more in your post, i am afraid you got me wrong about studying "demonology" i do not study the occult or demons themselves lol, i study the Word, i may read books published by other priests or pastors on the subject here and there but i never delve into occult works or things that are NOT of G-d for as you said it can be a slippery slope for one to head down that path. However, the scriptures teach that if we resist the devil, he will flee (Jas. 4: 7). As long as we are pure of spirit, and follow our Lords Commandments we have no need to worry ourselves, but i speak of those who are not however to those that need help, or seek help and are unable to find it. This is the reason we put on the full armor of G-d to keep ourselves strong against the dark one and to free those that may be oppressed by these unclean spirits. Thanks for adding your last comment. I think Micha'el was referring to the Ritualistic expelling of spirits, commonly referred to as Exorcism being found in the Word. I don't think he was saying it is not found in the scripture of people being delivered from demonic oppression caused by the demonic. Just wanted to clear that up and I am sure he will comment about the subject  |
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Post by Micha'el on Mar 14, 2013 13:05:34 GMT -8
I believe that when the Enemy wants to distract or disrupt G_ds people from reaching out to the multitudes, he may choose to do so with a demoniac. I've always seen the episodes of casting out to be a distraction from ministering to the lost. I am not saying that a demonized person is not lost and in need of salvatuion and even deliverance; they truely are. If we acted as Yeshua did by not even allowing the demon to speak, just cast it out (In Yeshua's name), we'd be saving time. And, the set free person may even want to follow Yeshua as did the one Yeshua set free. BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) Demonic possession did and still exists. Mark 16:17 'And signs shall accompany those believing these things; in my name demons they shall cast out; with new tongues they shall speak; I try not to search for these type of signs, however I believe HaShem will prepare His true believers to know how to respond for such a time. Micha'el  |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 14, 2013 18:08:24 GMT -8
B"H In the authority of our Messiah Yeshua - order the dirty bird out! I don't think we have to say many words to accomplish it if we have the authority of Yeshua The Messiah, The King over all. Although, if that doesn't work...I would try prayer and fasting...which could take significantly longer (Matt. 17:21, Mark 9:29). What this "prayer and fasting" looks like is up for debate...  L'chaim b'Yeshua! R' Reuel |
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scrolls, kvittles (written requests for spiritual guidance, healing, or miraculous intervention, sent to a Hasidic master), tefillin (phylacteries), or lamps (Sha'ar Ruah ha-Kodesh 89; Ma'aseh shel Ruah be-Kehillah). 
. 17 For if God has in fact willed that you should suffer, it is better that you suffer for doing what is good than for doing what is evil. 18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit; 
