Think Hebraic

[zionlion]

When reading the Bible, always think Hebraic; not Hellenistic.

[jimmie]

Can you give some examples to contrast the two ways of thinking?

[tonga]

Jun 13, 2011 13:54:13 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Can you give some examples to contrast the two ways of thinking?

Same question I have.....what are the supposed differences between these two "types" of thought?

[zionlion]

In short, the difference is understanding Scripture in context or not.
Would "Christians" really be celebrating things like Christmas and Easter (which have pagan origins) instead of G-d's Feasts if they realized that just like the mixed multitude which came out of Egypt with Moses, one must become part of Israel and seek to do His to be acceptable to Him? This, of course, is what Yeshua taught. Elohim is the G-d of Israel and anyone who doesn't come into His covenant with them is "without hope and without G-d in this world". This is what I mean when I speak of understanding the Word in its Hebraic context.

In most churches people are taught that the "Old Testament" is for "them" and the "New Testament" is for "us". This, of course, is completely false and a direct contradiction of the commandments of G-d and the teachings of Messiah and His messengers.

I used the term "Hellenistic" to refer to this dangerous teaching which leads many away from G-d's truth and keeps them bound in false religious tradition that began in ancient Catholicism (influenced by Greco-Roman paganism) and continued through the Protestant movement.

[David Ben Yosef]

Jun 14, 2011 10:58:35 GMT -8 zionlion said:

Elohim is the G-d of Israel and anyone who doesn't come into His covenant with them is "without hope and without G-d in this world".

I couldn't agree more.

The difference between an Hebraic mindset [world view] and any other is explained well enough by Tim Hegg HERE. Of course, I do not agree with everything Hegg teaches.





Shalom

[tonga]

Jun 14, 2011 10:58:35 GMT -8 zionlion said:

one must become part of Israel and seek to do His to be acceptable to Him?

So are you basing acceptance and "salvation" upon observance rather than believing in Jesus as messiah and savior?

[alon]

Sept 12, 2011 14:00:40 GMT -8 tonga said:

Jun 14, 2011 10:58:35 GMT -8 zionlion said:

one must become part of Israel and seek to do His to be acceptable to Him?

So are you basing acceptance and "salvation" upon observance rather than believing in Jesus as messiah and savior?

An old post, but I needed to take a break from some intensive prep for one of my mainstream outreaches and get some grounding in solid thought rather than "talking to heathens!" So I was just browsing here and came on this, which I thought deserved an answer.

"Salvation" today is the same as it was in the times of Noach, Avraham and Moshe; only exception being that to "Christians" and Messianics it includes the acknowledgment that Yeshua is HaMoshaich. God doesn't change, and He never said we were under a different "dispensation" than Yitzach was when he allowed himself to be bound as a sacrifice. It is based on belief in the promises of God and trust that He will provide a way. It is His grace (unmerited favor) when we come to Him with a repentive heart.

observance, obeying His instructions for living a set apart life, is an evidence of salvation, not a requirement for salvation. Not saying that everyone who refuses to obey is unsaved, but I will say they are in danger of missing the mark and so either are not really saved or may fall away more easily. You'll get a lot of opinions on that one, but it is how I see it.

I'll give you my notes on salvation in the TNK in a couple more posts, in case anyone is interested. Feel free to add to them or ask questions; make observations; explain the Jewish perspective (for purposes of comparison- I know we can't teach a view contrary to the SoF here); etc.

Hope it all helps- and I'll give the B'rit Chadashah notes later if you're interested. Just concentrating on the TNK because we seldom hear that side of the equation. And to be clear (in case any "NT" types are looking in)- we can, without changing any meaning, or adding to scripture, take that blank page that separates the "Old Testament" from the "New Testament" in all our Bibles and write in a great big "=" sign. May just be me being ornery, but that's how I see it.

Dan C

[alon]

The Plan of Salvation Illustrated in Old Testament Scriptures

God wants us to have a relationship with Him.

Isaiah 1:18 "18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.”

Gen 2:7 “the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

We are the only one He formed with His hands and breathed life into.

David describes relationship Psalm 8:3-6 “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained ; What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty ! You make him to rule over the works of Your hands ; You have put all things under his feet,”

That relationship depends on our response to God.

Isaiah 55:7 “let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Psalms, 11:7 “For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.”

None of us can claim to be righteous.

Isaiah 64:5 “You meet him who joyfully works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?”

Our works take us away from God’s presence.

Ezekiel 33:12b “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses”

All our good works will not by themselves please God when we ignore His commandments. In order for us to be declared righteous we must have faith, which is trust in what God has and will do for us. Faith is the first of two requirements for us to be declared righteous. Our trust must be in God, not ourselves.

Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.”

Genesis 15:6 “And he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.”

Isaiah 26:3 “You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you.”

The second requirement is that God make atonement for our transgressions. The cost of salvation is far too much for any man to purchase for himself.

Psalms 49:8,9 “for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.”

Psalms 49:15 “But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah”

So our faith and trust has always been in God and His plan for our redemption. This plan was revealed in the TNK in the slain lamb’s blood at Passover, in all the sacrifices of animals, and in Isaiah 53.

Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.”

Psalm 51:16,17 “For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.”

This is repentance.

God does not change, and neither does His method of redemption. We are today redeemed in exactly the same way as Israel in the past- a substitutionary blood sacrifice.

[alon]

Isaiah 53: 4-12 “4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.”

Micah 5:2 “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.”

The “ancient days” are from all eternity past, and speaks of God Himself. The sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish, perfect in every way concerning to God’s laws, only God Himself would suffice.

Ezekiel 18: 26-28 “When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.”

This says to me it is an ongoing, active commitment.

The initial choice is to each man to make. I had to make it the same as everyone else- “God is no respecter of persons.” And I must choose to stay on task. And it was the same in the TNK.

Rav Sha’ul, a Jew fully conversant with the Old Testament scriptures, sums up the whole system in just one verse.

2 Corinthians 5:21. “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.”

Salvation was given to all men in the TNK the same way as in the B’rit Chadashah. Avraham was declared righteous before the Law was even given because of his faith that God would provide salvation; clearly demonstrated when he placed Yitzak on the alter. All in the TNK, and especially the Hebrews looked forward to His provision of Messiah, the suffering Servant in Isaiah 53. We look back to His salvation and trust in His return. But one fact remains- trusting God is a choice each man must make for himself.

Christians, and Jewish people, the scattered tribes of Israel, should not view the plan of salvation in two distinct and separate ways. The Old Testament, just as clearly as the New Testament, presents the way of redemption and salvation. Yisrael was to look forward, in faith, to the coming, sacrificial Messiah, and today we look back, in faith, to the finished redemptive work of HaMoshiach. The single fact is clear; the Messiah of God, God Himself, came to earth to exchange His life for each one of us. We need only place our faith in Him to secure God’s forgiveness for our sin.


Old Testament verses that say that salvation is for all people, not just the Jews. • Genesis 12:3
Psalm 22:27
Isaiah 42:4
Isaiah 49:6
Isaiah 49:6
Isaiah 56:3-7
Isaiah 60:1-3
Jeremiah 16:19-21
Zechariah 2:11
Malachi 1:11
Romans 15:9-12 These are different wordings of:
Psalm 18:49
Deuteronomy 32:43
Psalm 117:1
Isaiah 11:10

[alon]

Hope that is clear, and not too much. But the topic is as simple as trust in Yeshua (God's provision, the perfect sacrifice which no man could ever give), and as complex as repentance for a life of sin (some of us more complex than others, I'll admit ). And demonstrated by God in His grace to us from the fall through the end of days, also prophesied of on both sides of that "=" sign.

Also, keep in mind I am still learning; young in Messianism and still have a lot of "Greek" thought to overcome. And there is a huge difference in Greek and Hebraic thought; just as today Jews and gentiles tend to think quite differently about many things.

We tend to be more black and white, where Jewish people can see grey areas more clearly
We think more in terms of individual salvation, where Jewish thought is more about national salvation (both are correct, btw)
We talk about things as if that is the same as doing them, where a Jew might argue about it all day, but in the end says "show me"

Just a few examples. Another is the understanding that both the "NT" & "OT" were written by Hebrews primarily to Hebrews. "Christianity" has had the idea that the "NT" was written by Hellenized Jews, if indeed they even think of it as being Jewish, etched into their linear little minds for so long they almost cannot see it any other way. Unfortunately, this is something modern Judaism tends to agree with them on, I think. But remember that the Greeks at that time were pagans, and their mythological method meant that at best 25% of any story was true. The rest could be "tweaked" to suit the desires of the storyteller. The Hebraic method then as I believe now said every word of scripture was true and could not be changed. Furthermore, scripture must agree, and the base to which everything is compared was/is .

So if you are wondering how mainstream Christianity ever got so separated from the truth and observance, it was primarily because of this basic method of thought- Hebrew vs. Greek, or pagan mindset. 75% or more is a lot of leeway in changing the meaning of any "story."

Sorry this one was so long in getting some kind of an answer.

Dan

edited because I had more to say and , well, it'd just look too much like a good ole' Southern Baptist sermon to make another post!

[Questor]

[quote author="alon" source="/post/15627/thread" timestamp="1388808475"]Hope that is clear, and not too much. But the topic is as simple as trust in Yeshua (God's provision, the perfect sacrifice which no man could ever give), and as complex as repentance for a life of sin (some of us more complex than others, I'll admit ). And demonstrated by God in His grace to us from the fall through the end of days, also prophesied of on both sides of that "=" sign.

Nice.  I would restate that as "Repent, trust in Yeshua, and live in obedience to YHVH as the Ruach haKodesh leads you each and every day."