Orthodox And Oral

[lawrenceofisrael]

where is your proof that the talmud is inspired when it is written in the to not add anything to the commandments of the most high, for example days like lag baomer?
thx for any answer.

[David Ben Yosef]

Nov 14, 2010 4:51:20 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

where is your proof that the talmud is inspired when it is written in the to not add anything to the commandments of the most high, for example days like lag baomer?
thx for any answer.

Judaism maintains that the Oral was given at Sinai, as well as the written . Therefore, the Oral is not an addition to the written , but one part of the whole sum of . I happen to agree with that position. I also happen to believe that Messianic Judaism should embrace normative Judaism, not denounce it, or abhor it. Which seems to be the case with most MJ's, unfortunately.

As for proving inspiration, that is up to each individual to decide for themselves, because ultimately, what we believe as individuals is inspired Scripture, or not, is the foundation for the source of our faith. Can you prove that the Greek NT is inspired? Really, when you think about it, what your asking of me is a rather silly proposition. However, if you insist upon some kind of "evidence", I'll only ask you this one question....
How is tzit-tzit to be constructed, exactly as it is commanded in the ? [Num. 15:37-41, Deu 22:12]

Hint: Don't bother looking in the written , because it's not there.



Shalom

[lawrenceofisrael]

the tzizit needs to be a tassel with a blue thread in it ( the blue thread is btw something i never saw a jew having) and thats all we have to know about it i think.
in judaism they also don´t mix milk with flesh which is also not in the and certainly doesn´t make that much sense when one eats flesh of chicken or turkey because the says to not cook the lamb in its mothers milk and as we all know birds do not breastfeed their young ones.
the so called nt is a commentary about the so called ot and it neither adds nor takes away from the commandments of the .
and you said that, quote, "judaism maintains that the oral was given at sinai...". if that was the case there should be clear indications for that in the scriptures. and since the talmud talks about judaism it shows that it was made up later because there was no judaism in the times of prophet moshe.

thx for your answer btw
peace.

[jimmie]

Jer 35:35:1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the LORD in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,
2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the LORD, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.
3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;
4 And I brought them into the house of the LORD, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:
5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.
6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:
7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.
8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;
9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:
10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.
11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.
12 Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,
13 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the LORD.
14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.
15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.
16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:
17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.
18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
19 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

The above is an example of an oral tradition that God found pleasing. Now do you suppose that the traditions of the Rechabites should become binding upon all, in order to be an Israelite in good standing before God? God forbid. I enjoy my house thank you. However I do subscribe to the no (alcoholic) wine portion of the Rechabite Tradition. I think my tradition is also pleasing to God. But God would become displeased with me, if I were to teach my tradition as a requirement to salvation/sanctification. I see the Jewish Oral Law no different so long as it doesn’t make the Laws of God of no effect.

[lawrenceofisrael]

thats a very nice post. the question i now ask myself is whether they wanted to be like samson meaning to be particularly set apart their whole life which requires you to not drink alcohol for example.
To clarify: Did they intend to be nazarites??

peace be upon you.

[David Ben Yosef]

Nov 19, 2010 3:35:04 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

the tzizit needs to be a tassel with a blue thread in it ( the blue thread is btw something i never saw a jew having) and thats all we have to know about it i think.

The Oral gives instructions on how to construct tzit-tzit. Which is my point. The written gives commandments that are impossible to keep without the Oral . That's just the first example that came to mind [and probably not a good one] although there are many more examples.

Nov 19, 2010 3:35:04 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

in judaism they also don´t mix milk with flesh which is also not in the and certainly doesn´t make that much sense when one eats flesh of chicken or turkey because the says to not cook the lamb in its mothers milk and as we all know birds do not breastfeed their young ones.

Are you aware of the theological explanation that Judaism has for not mixing meat & milk products? If so, can you tell me what it is, and why you disagree with it?

Nov 19, 2010 3:35:04 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

the so called nt is a commentary about the so called ot and it neither adds nor takes away from the commandments of the .

Many would argue that it does just that. Especially Christians.

Nov 19, 2010 3:35:04 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

and you said that, quote, "judaism maintains that the oral was given at sinai...". if that was the case there should be clear indications for that in the scriptures. and since the talmud talks about judaism it shows that it was made up later because there was no judaism in the times of prophet moshe.

Sure there was. Judaism began with the covenant given to Avraham Avinu. Then it was added to at Sinai...

(Galatians 3:17 Complete Jewish Bible)
Here is what I am saying: the legal part of the , which came into being 430 years later [than the covenant given to Avraham Avinu], does not nullify an oath sworn by God, so as to abolish the promise.



Shalom

[jimmie]

Nov 20, 2010 2:50:03 GMT -8 @lawrenceofisrael said:

thats a very nice post. the question i now ask myself is whether they wanted to be like samson meaning to be particularly set apart their whole life which requires you to not drink alcohol for example.
To clarify: Did they intend to be nazarites??quote]

II Kings 10:15 And when he was departed thence, he lighted on Jehonadab the son of Rechab coming to meet him: and he saluted him, and said to him, Is thine heart right, as my heart is with thy heart? And Jehonadab answered, It is. If it be, give me thine hand. And he gave him his hand; and he took him up to him into the chariot.
16 And he said, Come with me, and see my zeal for the LORD. So they made him ride in his chariot.
17 And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria, till he had destroyed him, according to the saying of the LORD, which he spake to Elijah.
18 And Jehu gathered all the people together, and said unto them, Ahab served Baal a little; but Jehu shall serve him much.
19 Now therefore call unto me all the prophets of Baal, all his servants, and all his priests; let none be wanting: for I have a great sacrifice to do to Baal; whosoever shall be wanting, he shall not live. But Jehu did it in subtlety, to the intent that he might destroy the worshippers of Baal.
20 And Jehu said, Proclaim a solemn assembly for Baal. And they proclaimed it.
21 And Jehu sent through all Israel: and all the worshippers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left that came not. And they came into the house of Baal; and the house of Baal was full from one end to another.
22 And he said unto him that was over the vestry, Bring forth vestments for all the worshippers of Baal. And he brought them forth vestments.
23 And Jehu went, and Jehonadab the son of Rechab, into the house of Baal, and said unto the worshippers of Baal, Search, and look that there be here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but the worshippers of Baal only.
24 And when they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings, Jehu appointed fourscore men without, and said, If any of the men whom I have brought into your hands escape, he that letteth him go, his life shall be for the life of him.
25 And it came to pass, as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the captains, Go in, and slay them; let none come forth. And they smote them with the edge of the sword; and the guard and the captains cast them out, and went to the city of the house of Baal.
26 And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them.
27 And they brake down the image of Baal, and brake down the house of Baal, and made it a draught house unto this day.
28 Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.
29 Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan.
30 And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.
31 But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the LORD God of Israel with all his heart: for he departed not from the sins of Jeroboam, which made Israel to sin.
32 In those days the LORD began to cut Israel short: and Hazael smote them in all the coasts of Israel;

It appears that Jehonadab’s purpose for the Recabite Traditions may have been two fold. The no houses, field or seed portion gave them the needed mobility to escape areas begin taken over by Hazael as seen in vs 32 above and eventually to escape to Jerusalem as seen in the passage from Jeremiah. The no wine portion would have made it particularly hard for the Recabites to participate in the worship at the two golden calves that Jehu continued to cleave to after Jehonadab helped him become King. In short, as society around Jehonadab was falling apart, he lead his family into a way of life similar to that of Israel in the wilderness. Deut. 29:6 “Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.” It doesn’t appear that the Recabites took on the full requirements of the Nazarite vow.