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Post by azgdt5120 on Nov 16, 2009 19:02:03 GMT -8
If there's one event the 4 testimonies make sure to notify about it is the physical resurrection of Yeshua, this powerfull event does not leave room for misinterpretation. Does a messianic jewish doctrine believes in it?
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Post by davidwiseman on Nov 16, 2009 20:41:09 GMT -8
If there's one event the 4 testimonies make sure to notify about it is the physical resurrection of Yeshua, this powerfull event does not leave room for misinterpretation. Does a messianic jewish doctrine believes in it? "Messianic" is a tricky term, but if you have cable, I would recommend watching the National Geographic channel this Friday at 8. |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 18, 2010 21:52:16 GMT -8
Does a messianic jewish doctrine believes in it? In a word...YES! Belief in the resurrection is absolutely essential to the Messianic faith (1 Cor 15) as well as Judaism (see Maimonides: "The 13 principles of faith"). I am unaware of any current Judaism that doesn't confess the resurrection of the dead. Doubtless, they would be labeled heretics by the mainstream if they denied it. |
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Post by Mark on Jan 20, 2010 4:48:22 GMT -8
Where's the body, Ben? And why was it not presented when these rumors started? And why did thousands of Jews accept Messiah as Yeshua in the first year after His death, including many of the priests? Why did Nicodemus suddenly and mysteriously disappear from all record as being a member of the Sanhedrin? How do you explain every single one of the original disciples willingly suffering persecution and dying, sometimes horrific deaths for their faith, deaths which they could have avoided if only they recanted what you believe they must have known to be a lie?
By the way, you are inserting your own assumption of what you believe the "other gospel" to have been, when, if you read the book of Galatians, it is clearly the teaching that arose in Acts 15- that one must convert to Judaism in order to be saved.
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 20, 2010 11:56:41 GMT -8
That's what you think! There was no eyewitness to Yeshua's physical resurrection. Your right, nobody actually witnessed Yeshua during his resurrection process. However, it is recorded that he was seen after his death by more than 500 people: (1 Corinthians 15:3-6 CJB) For among the first things I passed on to you was what I also received, namely this: the Messiah died for our sins, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; and he was buried; and he was raised on the third day, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; and he was seen by Kefa, then by the Twelve; and afterwards he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, though some have died. The four testimonies, he refers to above, were written 50+ years after Yeshua had been gone. And they did it because it was according to the gospel of Paul. So your saying that the Gospel authors wrote their accounts to validate Sha'uls ministry? |
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Post by zionlion on Jan 21, 2010 15:21:36 GMT -8
Ben,
Yeshua left Israel with His wife and Joseph?
With all due respect, your vivid imagination would be admirable if the subject matter of your novel was not of such pivotal importance.
After reading your post, I double-checked my calendar to make sure that today is not April 1st.
I don't mean to be unkind, but...
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Post by Mark on Jan 21, 2010 17:45:08 GMT -8
I have to say that Ben's position is laughable at best (and that's being kind).
His attempt to represent Judaism is embarrassing. Please see the Gibor Adonai which is not only repeated every Sabbath during worship but is part of the morning and evening prayers said daily. "Blessed are You, Adonai our God, who is faithful to resurrect the dead."
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 21, 2010 19:04:35 GMT -8
Hey now, let's hold off before we start throwing rocks at the man. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I would like to engage in a discussion with him using written, and oral  if it behooves the rest of you guys? |
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Post by zionlion on Jan 21, 2010 20:02:44 GMT -8
I still have my rocks.  I think you'll agree, my rebuke was kinder and gentler. Opinions are fine but should have some basis in fact. I'd like to know the rest of the story; like why did Yeshua and His wife take Joseph with them but leave the disciples behind? Should be quite a finish. |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 21, 2010 22:24:05 GMT -8
I'm currently preparing a rebuttal (although my time is limited). No need to cast stones gentleman. The views expressed by benmasada are easily refuted with the writings of Rambam himself. Not to mention written & oral . He's just confusing the Rambam's view on Olam HaBa with the epic of Mashiakh. Trust me.  Oh, by the way, if anyone following this thread wishes to read the Rambam's "Guide for the perplexed" online you can do so HERE. I've read it many times, and I too highly recommend this work as required reading for the Messianic. *EDIT*After some prayer, and careful consideration, I'm asking benmasada to politely disengage the discussion. The general consensus concerning Rambam, and the resurrection of the dead is this..."He was also criticized by some who misinterpreted his works for not believing in the Resurrection of the Dead." I can easily produce so many statements form Maimonides himself concerning a literal, and physical resurrection from the dead, that time would fail me to post them all. Please don't force me to embarrass you... |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 30, 2010 0:08:38 GMT -8
Personally, I've never considered it an impossibility that Yeshua married. He most certainly could have, and it wouldn't invalidate his candidacy for Mashiakh. However, there doesn't appear to be any evidence of that, unless you read between the lines, like Ben has chosen to do.
Ben, do have any further evidence that Yeshua took a wife, other than the text you mentioned regarding the marriage feast in Cana?
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 30, 2010 0:49:09 GMT -8
I guess this explains those 40 days mentioned by Luke, which he kept appearing to the disciples in the consolidation of the Sect. Ben Speaking of explanations. How do you explain that Luke also recorded that those forty days spent with his talmidim occurred after Yeshua was resurrected? (Acts 1:3 CJB) After his death he showed himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. During a period of forty days they saw him, and he spoke with them about the Kingdom of God. And could you please tell me exactly what Yeshua meant when he said he would be killed, and then rise again the third day? Or what Sha'ul meant when he preached Mashiakh crucified, and resurrected? Were these all lies, or are we to allegorize those passages as well? |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 30, 2010 0:57:31 GMT -8
To look for ways to embarrass each other is not a good policy in the teaching of the Truth. It is not my intention to seek to embarrass you, Ben. What I meant is that you have so grossly misrepresented the RaMBaM, that his own writings that are to the contrary of your view, can be produced in great number. These, no doubt, would be embarrassing for you. At least they would be for me, if I was in your shoes. I also might add that the philosophical ideas the RaMBaM brought forth concerning the resurrection of the dead in his "Guide" was utterly rejected by the Judaism of his day. He was labeled a heretic for quite some time because of those philosophies too. Now, if you want me to produce some writings from the RaMBaM where he holds the idea of a physical resurrection of the dead, I'll do so. |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 30, 2010 2:05:04 GMT -8
Hey David, I have here with me three different translations of the Bible. Two of them, including a KJV, give me Acts 1:3 as, "During those 40 days Yeshua was seen alive by many infalible proofs, AFTER HIS PASSION." The other translation brings AFTER HIS SUFFERINGS. Therefore, I don't know where you are coming from with your translation, "after his death." I gave the translation in the quote. CJB means "Complete Jewish Bible." You can view Acts chapter 1 online: HERE.Even if you reject that translation, the text also clearly says that he showed himself alive "by many infalliable proofs". Why would he have to prove himself alive if he hadn't actually died? What about the other questions I asked you in that post that you conveniently ignored? If you would like to discuss this fine, but to ignore my questions is just plain rude. |
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Post by David Ben Yosef on Jan 30, 2010 2:09:27 GMT -8
Yes David, I do. I do have a long thread about "The Wedding of Yeshua" but I can't post it here. It would be the same as to sign myself off as banned forever. I have alread been given a second chance back. I don't want to leave yet. I like the substance you guys disccus about. This forum seems to be very selective. Ben Yes, this is a great place to discuss Scripture. I'm glad I came back after a few years absence. Perhaps if your fearful of a banning, you could PM me the information? Like I said, I haven't ruled out the possibility that Yeshua married. |
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and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you. [Numbers 15:16]
