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Post by yeshuafreak on Sept 17, 2009 11:02:28 GMT -8
on "karaite korner" by nehemiah gordan, there seems to be a HUGE amount of energy devoted to "correcting th calender."
in fact, most of the karaite movement (the idea that the rabbis do not have authority) seems to lean upon "there calender is incorrect" "they dont observe the mezuzah and t'fillin correctly" "their tzitzit is not tied right." thats about it.
now, this thread is mainly about the calender. any proof for it?against it?
i have a problem with karaites who reject everything rabbinic. i have no problem with the statement" rabbis dont have authority", because they dont. but i still study the rabbis so that i can recieve possible interpretations and knwledge from scripture. but many karaites reject all interpretations presented by the rabbis just because the rabbis presented them.
so i am "semi-karaite."
but what do you guys have to say about the calender? new moon? barley?
shalom
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Sept 17, 2009 11:49:13 GMT -8
You´re right just rejecting the rabbis is not right. There are some really good teachings they presented. However i´ll give some proof for the karaite calendar next time. For now it´s just that the rabbis believe Yom Teruah to be the New Year while actually  say that New year start a bit before pesach. May peace and blessings be upon us all. |
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Post by Mark on Sept 17, 2009 17:35:34 GMT -8
Who in had the authority to establish the set dates for Moadim? Was it any joe who had a convincing argument? No, it was the elders and judges of Israel: the Sanhedrin. Just because someone has a convincing argument (which, by the way, he really doesn't. He makes profound assumptions as to what the definitions of the New Moon and barley harvest). Messiah confirmed the authrority of the rabbinical leadership. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Matt. 23:2-3) It's almost funny if it were not so  . "My love for makes me 'Jewish' regardless of my last name or my grandma's last name. I guess that just makes me of the tribe of Ephraim. And, by the way, the Jews botched the method of determining signs and seasons. We higher-enlightened 'new Jews' know better." Tell me why this isn't Replacement Theology? |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Sept 18, 2009 1:30:53 GMT -8
Firstly that´s not true. The Almighty set the Moedim.
But the elders and jugdes of Israel had a significantly different lifestyle than ashkenazi jews today.
They didn´t wear black hats and black robes. They didn´t believe that touching money on Shabbat is sin.
So there´s a good chance that they had different dates for the Moedim.
The tribe of Ephraim is not Jewish it´s Israelite.
Jews come from the tribe of Yehudah which is on tribe among Israel.
However this tribe has a very special promise from Adonai. They are the tribe that will rule the others and this is what makes them special among the Israelites.
And this is not Replacement Theology cause i don´t believe that israel is eternally forsaken and that the catholic church or any other system replace the beloved people of Israel. They are the chosen people no doubt but still they make mistakes. I really don´t understand your problem with that.
There´s no doubt that they set the New Year at a wrong time.
What do you think about that??
May peace and blessings be upon us all.
P.S. If the bible quote you provided said that we have to blindly follow them the scripture would contradict itself.
It doesn´t however. Why did Yeshua not accept there authority in other places. Actually the correct translation would be: What he (Moshe) taught you do but do not follow what they (the Rabbis) do.
This was found out not to long ago and i´ll provide two links for two lectures from a brother who states my point of view. We can discuss that respectfully or continue having prejudice against each other and against brothers that have a different opinion. I personally hope that you choose the first option.
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Sept 18, 2009 1:40:00 GMT -8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ephQCp9jSuE&feature=PlayList&p=259717C822825BA9&index=0This is the first link to a playlist from a brother talking about the Creator´s calendar. He´s got a very long introduction but after that (if i understand everything correctly) he provides proof against the rabbinical calendar. The videos switch automatically if one ends to the next. www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIB67UCp2fQ This is abou the bible verse you provided. Again if anyone wants to discuss that i´d be glad to do so but in a respectful way as brothers and sisters and not the way it started. may peace and blessings be upon us all.
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Post by Mark on Sept 18, 2009 3:30:11 GMT -8
Who established the beginning of the New Moon for the moedim which Messiah Yeshua participated in?
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Post by Mark on Sept 18, 2009 4:26:50 GMT -8
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Post by yeshuafreak on Sept 18, 2009 11:16:06 GMT -8
where are the scriptures? i need pasukim... barley harvest, moedim, rosh chodesh... i personally dont know where these fit into the calender. shalom |
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Post by Mark on Sept 19, 2009 6:28:31 GMT -8
Hi John, Let back off a little bit to give you a scope of what Karaite Judaism is. Samaritanism was a sect of Judaism that believed only the . Joshua through Malachai were considered para-biblical and thus not authoritative texts. Because of this, they were able to establist their own Temple mount outside of Jerusalem and in Samaria. They could define terms for religious practice separate from the national context that Israel understood. Messiah Yeshua condemned them in John 4, saying, "You don't even know what it is that you worship." Karaite Judaism, which came into existence in the mid-second Century, recognizes the entire Tanakh as enspired; but does not allow for any cultural or contextual interpretation (which is what Talmud is all about). That's actually moronic. What it really means is that in refusing the national development of interpretative works, they were free to develop their own. Here's the deal: Karaite Judaism refuses any interpretation outside of the Tanakh as inspired. This means that you can't possibly believe in Yeshua as Messiah and truly be Karaite. The New Testament is simply a contextual interpretation of the Tankh inspired by God- exactly the thing that the Karaite opposes. What's more is that Yeshua, our Messiah, employed the rabbinical process of hermaneutics in His teachings. When He declared, "All the Law and the prophets are fulfilled in one word: to love your neighbor as yourself." the Karaites would have freaked! Yet, He was quoting the dominant rabbi (Hillel the first) whom the Karaites would have absolutely dismissed. Paul's teaching, and training, is from rabbinical hermaneutical exegeisis. When he applied "you shall not muzzle the ox thta treads the corn" to financially supporting the congregational leadership, he was expanding the scope of that teaching ina way that the Karaites would never have allowed. Here's the fundamental difference. Samaritanism, Karaite Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity, all suppose that God flew us a paper airplane full of teachings and instructions that, if we're smart enough, and diligent enough, we can figure it out. Yet the Bible says that it is the Spirit of God that leads us into all truth. That's the difference between Rabbinical and Karaite Judaism. |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Sept 19, 2009 11:58:34 GMT -8
Just that there is no misunderstanding. I do not agree to all the Karaite Jews believe in.
However what you´ve said is exactly why we have christianity today. They interprete things their way claiming that the spirit told them and sometimes it´s even hardcore satanic stuff. Believe me i´ve heard that myself enough times.
If there however is a teaching that does not contradict the scriptures and might be useful why not use it. Im not against it. I make that myself.
However if we start philosofying and speculating, speaking without knowledge were not gonna get closer to Adonai.
to the talmud. Yes there are good and helpful things in it but others are completely wrong and anti scripture. And the bible is a timeless book so it doesn´t really matter whether they had a different culture that time cause i have to submit whatever background im from.
"Who established the beginning of the New Moon for the moedim which Messiah Yeshua participated in?" Im not sure what you mean by that question Mark. Please clarify.
May peace and blessings be upon us all.
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Post by Mark on Sept 19, 2009 17:36:49 GMT -8
Messiah participated in the moedim as they were established and confirmed by the Sanhedrin, as testified by Matt. 23:2-3.
The hermaneutical process given for us to follow by Messiah's example was rabbinic.
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Sept 19, 2009 22:32:05 GMT -8
As I said enough times. Im not against anything rabbinic from the scriptures. I posted a link for a video about that bible passage above. It´s the second one.
And we gotta know that the rabbinical calendar of today was established after the destruction of Jerusalem and in the exile of the Jews.
And thus yeah i also believe that Yeshua kept them on their days because these days were correct at that time.
However he did not wash his hands before having dinner. He plucked grain on the Shabbat.
He ate with sinners. He blamed the rabbis over and over again.
So to say that he instructed us to blindly follow them and to accept everything they teach whatever it be is not better than the catholics in the medieval (and sometimes still today) who followed their priest, bishops and the pope blindly into horrible sins.
One comment to the bible passage. There are some rabbis today like the Rabbis from Neturei Karta that believe that the state of Israel is a serious crime against the almighty. Will you also follow them?? I don´t think so because it clearly contradicts the scripture. However if they or others or we ourselves stumble over bible passages that need to be interpreted and we disagree about something we should not just believe what suits us most but listen to the arguments of each other.
Cause i myself made mistakes in the past and in this forum learned better and thus changed my behaviour or parts of my faith accordingly.
Please watch the second video link i provided in one of my comments above and tell me what you think about it.
May peace and blessings be upon us all
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say that New year start a bit before pesach.
. "My love for 
