Passover and Christianity

[alon]

Mar 17, 2015 10:39:31 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

I have always assumed that even if the home was Jewish, had they not put the blood on the door, they would have suffered the same fate.

Exodus 12:12-13 (NASB) For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the Lord. The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

As I read that, any household not having the shed blood of the Pesach lamb on the door would suffer the loss of the firstborn of both their children and livestock.

I think this question goes back to another question, which is why did they have to give an offering to G-d in the first place

I don't understand the logic in sacrifices. I know there is a purpose and He is teaching us something, but I struggle with understanding. I keep coming back to it having something to do with recognizing life is from him and to him. I don't know, but I think this question gets into a complicated subject that I have a hard time grappling with.

Anyway I think every household, Jewish or Egyptian, was required to give an offering to G-d. I think the issue was the tension between G-d being Israel's protection, but Him being who they needed protection from.

The sacrifices were a vivid reminder to the Hebrews of the high cost of sin. This is especially true of the Passover lamb, which was selected the week before and then lived in the home with the family. A week is about enough time to get attached to the animal as one does with a pet, then it was sacrificed.

They also pointed forward to what G-d was going to do for mankind in the life of Yeshua. After the crucifixion the sacrifices looked back to what He had done.

G-d is not cruel, demanding blood just for the sake of killing. In fact, shechitah (ritual slaughter) is done in one quick, deep stroke across the throat. The blade must be sharp, with no nicks. It is painless, and unconsciousness occurs in less than two seconds. Many non-kosher animals have a third artery which supplies the brain running along the spine. Unconsciousness occurs much slower for these animals. Humans have this artery. I once responded to an MVA on the ambulance crew where a woman had blown both carotids. We got her in to the hospital and saved her life even with no carotid blood supply because this third artery supplied enough blood to the brain to sustain it. Sadly not enough to prevent brain damage, especially to a traumatized brain.

I agree with Alon that a lot was said in their trust. Though Egyptian households lost the most, it was Israel who gave the most. They gave their wellbeing to Him as they trusted and obeyed Him. Therefore, they could experience His mercy.

Absolutely it required trust for them to put that blood on their doors! Every person who did so was acutely aware that had this last plan failed to convince Pharoah to let the Hebrews go he would surely retaliate on any household having the blood on their doorways. And any goyim having this would have to leave with the Hebres. This was a clear choice- do you trust G-d or not. Are you more afraid of the wrath of G-d or of Pharoah? It is as Joshua would challenge Israel forty some odd years later; "Choose this day whom you shall serve!"

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

It is an ugly reminder for sure, the part I struggle with is how it pleases Him.

It's really strange because I think G-d gave the first "offering", if you will, which was life. Then we are required to turn around and hand him what appears to be the opposite, death.

I can see a bit of this dynamic on a personal level. I feel like G-d continually offers me life and goodness. All I can really give is my weakness and sin with a faith in Him to make something good of me in spite of it.

Maybe this is a similar expression that there is no life apart for Him and a trust that He can still make it good if we give it back to Him to do so.

 It pleases Him, so what is it that pleases him? The best I can come up with, is that it goes back to Him, and we submit life to Him in faith. I don't know I really struggle on this issue, but I am convinced He somehow turns it to good.

Yeshua helps me grasp it a lot better, but it is still way beyond me.

[alon]

Mar 18, 2015 6:19:18 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

It pleases Him, so what is it that pleases him? The best I can come up with, is that it goes back to Him, and we submit life to Him in faith. I don't know I really struggle on this issue, but I am convinced He somehow turns it to good.

Yeshua helps me grasp it a lot better, but it is still way beyond me.

That is part of your Christian indoctrination. We were taught in so many subtle ways that the God of the Old Testament was cruel, demanding and legalistic; while the Jesus of the New Testament was love, kindness and forgiveness. The fact is they are one and the same.

John 10:30 (ESV) "I and the Father are one.”

It isn't the death that pleases Him. It is the heart attitude of the ones who make the sacrifice.

Hebrews 11:4 (NKJV) By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

Genesis 4:3 (NKJV) And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord.

The word used for “offering” here is minchah, which can also mean “sacrifice” or “meat offering.” It is used in Leviticus to refer to both meat and produce offerings.

Leviticus 23:18 (NKJV) And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs of the first year, without blemish, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be as a burnt offering to the Lord, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the Lord.

Blood, or death is the price of our sin.

Romans 6:23 (NKJV) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 9:22 (NKJV) And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (NKJV) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Death doesn't please God any more than sin. But men do sin, and the cost of that sin is high. Both Abel and Cain shed blood, but it was the heart attitude of Abel God showed favor to.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for putting up with my questions.  I hope I don't annoy you with one more.

Mar 18, 2015 10:09:46 GMT -8 alon said:

Mar 18, 2015 6:19:18 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Okay, I tried the quote feature, but it didn't work out.

Alon said, on the date and time specified above

"Death doesn't please G-d anymore than sin. But men do sin, and the cost of that sin is high. Both Abel and Cain shed blood, but it was the heart attitude of Abel that G-d showed favor to."

Again, I am just trying to understand the dynamics of what is going on. Do you think that is the message of the blood sacrifice then - that we are all guilty of shedding blood?  Maybe it is saying this is what we do with the life you've given us, but we know it's yours and it still has life and worth in you? 

[alon]

Mar 19, 2015 7:05:47 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Do you think that is the message of the blood sacrifice then - that we are all guilty of shedding blood? Maybe it is saying this is what we do with the life you've given us, but we know it's yours and it still has life and worth in you?

Yes, it clearly sends the message that we are all guilty- guilty of sin for which the penalty is death. And I'd suspect those participating in sacrifices would gain an insight to the value of the life they are given. Most Christians and Messianics would not take sin so lightly, I suspect, if we had to sacrifice animals regularly for those sins.

Anything God does is for our benefit, not His. He knows what sin is and what it costs; what it would and did cost Him. We are the ones who need the illustration.

Dan C

[alon]

Moderator Note: These two threads on Pesach and Passover and Christianity have been combined in order to clean up the forum; and to possibly generate more discussion. Todah.

Dan

[alon]

Mar 23, 2015 5:30:10 GMT -8 alon said:

Moderator Note: These two threads on Pesach and Passover and Christianity have been combined in order to ... possibly generate more discussion.

Well, that worked well! Despite the enthusiastic lack of discussion, Pesach is 4 days away. I hope you all have your plans laid in for the feast day. I'll be with the Wenatchee congregation for the Pesach Seder on Friday. So between now and then I need to figure out how to make a big batch of mashed potatoes that won't offend anyone's ... whatever gets offended- palate, colon, (?). I like a LOT of butter and even more pepper in mine, but that's probably not a good idea. I also don't mind a few peels as long as they were scrubbed. But some do mind. And what about garlic and salt? I like a lot of garlic and just enough salt so you know it's there. And milk. Some people can't eat milk (but then they couldn't stand the butter either). And those little pearl onions! I'd just make 'em to suit me, but since almost no one else likes 'em like that it'd sort of not be in the proper spirit of the day. Talk about watering down the word, now I gotta tone down the potatoes!

Dan ( ) C