Shul

[dave]

Does anyone here attend shul if they don't have a messianic synagogue or congregation near them? If not, would you consider it? I spoke with a man from Israel a while back who is with Bibles for Israel. He suggested that I attend shul to help get a basic grasp of the Judaic understanding. He suggested that I simply say that I am a secular Jew and that I'm interested in hearing what they have to say.

Any thoughts?

The only messianic synanogue in Michigan that seems somewhat worthwhile is at least an hour and a half away, and they teach dispensationalism. Which to be honest, I don't have a complete grasp on anyway. But I think I remember reading that it was something that this board is against in general.

Dave

[Mark]

Hi Dave,

My first recommendation would be to move to Oregon.

It's not a bad idea to enjoy fellowship with Jewish people in this context of worship. The apostle Paul certainly did- and the earliest believers met together with non-believing Jews in the synagogue throughout the first Century.

However, I would be up front about your confidence in Yeshua as Messiah. Rarely is this a problem, so long as you are not disruptive nor openly attempt to prosyletize. There are those out there who will want to sway you away from this faith; but if you consider the weight of evidences, and understand that the traditional view of a number of Old Testament passages have been reinterpretted specifically to deny Yeshua as Messiah, such discussions should inevitably only strengthen your relationship with Adonai through Messiah Yeshua. We would just ask that you consider not only one side of the question before choosing.

I also wouldn't give up hope on finding a Messianic group in your area. They're out there. It's also important that you be careful not to place yoru expectations too high in what you are looking. You can find sincerity in the dernedest places.

[betchevy]

Father sent me to a synagogue for a while, and it was a beautiful experience, in fact I was able to see one of the oldest members through a very tough time, shared with him Yeshua right before his death and then later see the rabbi leave to become a believer in Messiah....and amazingly the replacement did also....it was as if Yeshua said, take the Ruach Ha Kodesh into this house and watch my hand move , work and claim those whom I will..I moved to Texas after that, and now a friend has been "called" to go into the same synagogue for study and fellowship.... I wonder who is going to be "called" now???

I live in small town Texas now, and the closest place for me to have fellowship of like minded folks is a 100 mile trip...so not exactly a Sabbath restful day... the closest synagogue is about 35 miles, so far I haven't been "called" to go there, but if I am, I will with joy...

[tonga]

Aug 16, 2009 17:43:48 GMT -8 dave said:

He suggested that I simply say that I am a secular Jew and that I'm interested in hearing what they have to say.

Any thoughts?

My thought is not to heed this advice. It is being dishonest.
If you are halachaly Jewish, then I would let them know in
advance about your belief in Jesus. It may cause halachic
issues as far as being counted in a minyon, being called
for an aliyah, etc.

If you aren't halachaly Jewish, then it is going to cause
even bigger problems.

Honesty is the best policy here..and would you want to
attend a shul under a deceptive cover anyway?

[yeshuafreak]

i would either not mention whether you are a messianic jew unless they ask, or say you are a mj up front.

i suggest mentioning it because like tonga said, it would create halakhic problems... but rarely ever, like mark said, is it a problem to attend as a messianic jew.

shalom

[tonga]

Sept 7, 2009 14:43:46 GMT -8 @yeshuafreak said:

i would either not mention whether you are a messianic jew unless they ask, or say you are a mj up front.

i suggest mentioning it because like tonga said, it would create halakhic problems... but rarely ever, like mark said, is it a problem to attend as a messianic jew.

shalom

Yes, definitely mention either that you are a Messianic Jew or
a Messianic gentile, whichever the case is.

Attending will not be an issue, they aren't going to chase
you out of the shul

[yeshuafreak]

shul is synagogue right?

and why do some jews call synagogue "temple." i know that some believe that prayers substitue sacrifices until the temple is reinstated, among other things that make the synagogue similar to the temple, but why call it "temple." it is not the temple.

shalom

[tonga]

Sept 9, 2009 16:34:08 GMT -8 @yeshuafreak said:

shul is synagogue right?

correct, although it is actually from the German for
school. Usually it is only used by Ashkenazi Jews.

and why do some jews call synagogue "temple." i know that some believe that prayers substitue sacrifices until the temple is reinstated, among other things that make the synagogue similar to the temple, but why call it "temple." it is not the temple.

shalom

As far as I know, only Reform Jews call their shuls "temple".
Why they use it, I don't have a clue.

Conservatives and Orthodox tend to use "congregation"
in the name of their shuls, while Reform use "temple".

[yeshuafreak]

i see... the conservative synagogue that we have here at watertown uses "temple." but it has a female rabbi and might as well be reform.

thank you for answering.

i am ashkenazi by birth, so it would not be improper for me to use it among other Jews or God-Fearers (ben noach). although i prefer the shaphardic dialect, siddurim, and some traditions. i just mix them sometimes when no rule in prohibits it, and when i am not with God-Fearers (ben noach) or Jews.

i will probably use "congregation" though, as it seems to be more collective.

shalom

PS- tonga: in dt 23:1, what does "assembly of the Lord" represent- israel, temple, the synagogue? and what is dt 23:1-10 prohibit and why? i dont understand this passage and am discussing it on my forum now actually. ... also, do some Jewish people get offended by the term "synagogue."

i know i seem to lack in jewish culture currently, so if you are wondering, i will link you to an article that i will be writting called "recollections." it is a biography of me, and how i cam eto find out that i was jewish, not gentile.

anway, shalomie

[tonga]

Sept 10, 2009 11:48:47 GMT -8 @yeshuafreak said:

i see... the conservative synagogue that we have here at watertown uses "temple." but it has a female rabbi and might as well be reform.

Non-Reform shuls seldom use the term "Temple",
but it does happen. The Conservative movement do ordain
women rabbis. However, the Conservatvie movement has
a huge variation in observances....some are close to being
Orthodox, others are as liberal as the Reform.

although i prefer the shaphardic siddurim,

I belong to an Ashkenazi shul, but we have always used
a Sephardic siddur...currently we use the Artscroll Sefard
siddur. I'm not really sure how that came about..

i will probably use "congregation" though, as it seems to be more collective.

More accurate, too, I think, since it was pointed out above
that Reform "temples" are not the "Temple"

[tonga]

Sept 10, 2009 11:48:47 GMT -8 @yeshuafreak said:

and how i cam eto find out that i was jewish, not gentile.

what is your definition of "who is a Jew?"

[tonga]

Sept 10, 2009 11:48:47 GMT -8 @yeshuafreak said:

PS- tonga: in dt 23:1, what does "assembly of the Lord" represent- israel, temple, the synagogue? and what is dt 23:1-10 prohibit and why? i dont understand this passage and am discussing it on my forum now actually. ... also, do some Jewish people get offended by the term "synagogue."

I'll try to answer tonight when I get home and have a Tanach
in front of me, but I am leaving early tomorrow morning and will
be out of town until next week...so if I don't answer til then, it
means I ran out of time tonight.

[yeshuafreak]

what is your definition of "who is a Jew?"

that is a very complex question! ou can be ethnically hebrew (which people also call "jewish), you can follow the religion of judaism (and even if you are a gentile you are called "jewish" if you follow judaism by some people); you can be ethnically hebrew and follow judaism (which can be called "jewish). ..etc

so it all depends on who you are talking to.

my definition: a hebrew who follows judaism. a gentile can follow judaism as a gentile, but not a hebrew. the gentile is a ben noach, ger tzedek, ger toshav, etc. but NOT a hebrew.

now, the words "hebrew" "jewish" "judaism" "israelite" and scuh have all become interchangeable so it becomes a very complex question. here is my def of terms:

hebrew: a person born of abraham isaac and jacob- this is an ethnicity

jewish: an ethnic hebrew who follows judaism is "jewish." something cannot be "jewish", as the meaning of "jewish" in that context would be something within the culture of the hebrews.

jew: a hebrew of judah

israelite: a hebrew of israel improper

judaism: the religion of God, given to the hebrews to be communicated to the goyim.

and that is my definition! but not all hebrews are sons of abraham spiritually. you can be literally a son of abraham, but this does not make you an inheritor of the promise of abraham, as you have to follow judaism to do so.

(now, this is where i say we do not inherit the promise through the works of the law, but by trusting in the messiah who did the works of the law for us, and then had his righteousness imputed onto us... yet after this happens we are still to live as children of light following , for if we live like children of the darkness than we never recieved imputation or that imputation was taken away).

technically, a jew proper is always a hebrew, but a hebrew is not necassarily a jew proper. a jew proper is a TYPE of hebrew who descended from judah. those of Israel are hebrews, but not all hebrews are necesarily israel. but israel proper is the nation as a whole, consisiting of all the sons of abraham, the remnant of true believers perserving them, which perserves the world.

this is getting confusing even to me, so i will stop here.

shalom

[tonga]

Sept 10, 2009 15:44:25 GMT -8 @yeshuafreak said:

what is your definition of "who is a Jew?"

that is a very complex question! ou can be ethnically hebrew (which people also call "jewish), you can follow the religion of judaism (and even if you are a gentile you are called "jewish" if you follow judaism by some people); you can be ethnically hebrew and follow judaism (which can be called "jewish). ..etc

so it all depends on who you are talking to.

my definition: a hebrew who follows judaism. a gentile can follow judaism as a gentile, but not a hebrew. the gentile is a ben noach, ger tzedek, ger toshav, etc. but NOT a hebrew.

now, the words "hebrew" "jewish" "judaism" "israelite" and scuh have all become interchangeable so it becomes a very complex question. here is my def of terms:

hebrew: a person born of abraham isaac and jacob- this is an ethnicity

jewish: an ethnic hebrew who follows judaism is "jewish." something cannot be "jewish", as the meaning of "jewish" in that context would be something within the culture of the hebrews.

jew: a hebrew of judah

israelite: a hebrew of israel improper

judaism: the religion of God, given to the hebrews to be communicated to the goyim.

and that is my definition! but not all hebrews are sons of abraham spiritually. you can be literally a son of abraham, but this does not make you an inheritor of the promise of abraham, as you have to follow judaism to do so.

(now, this is where i say we do not inherit the promise through the works of the law, but by trusting in the messiah who did the works of the law for us, and then had his righteousness imputed onto us... yet after this happens we are still to live as children of light following , for if we live like children of the darkness than we never recieved imputation or that imputation was taken away).

technically, a jew proper is always a hebrew, but a hebrew is not necassarily a jew proper. a jew proper is a TYPE of hebrew who descended from judah. those of Israel are hebrews, but not all hebrews are necesarily israel. but israel proper is the nation as a whole, consisiting of all the sons of abraham, the remnant of true believers perserving them, which perserves the world.

this is getting confusing even to me, so i will stop here.

shalom

Oy, my head is spinning
So, I guess what I am asking is, you don't follow the traditional
definition of a Jew is born of a Jewish mother, or converted?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but for me, I like to know who
here is halachaly Jewish, and who is not.. I take it your mother
is not a Jew?

[yeshuafreak]

my mother is hebrew. she never followed the jewish customs however. but when i learned that we were hebrew, i took the mitzvot of jews upon my shoulders as i have always been inclined to do.

i do take into account halakhah's definition, and though i have a very open view (meaining there is so much debate over what makes one a jew that i just decided to know the views rather than take one) than i just consider it, as i have not decided lyet.

as i read it, the rabbis seem to be ambigous on stating that a mother has to be jewish- they dont explain whether the mother needs to be a practicing jew, or just ethnically hebrew.

in fact, my great great (and however many greats) grandfather was abraham geiger.

my father is german jew. (not practicing, only ethnically)

my mothers father was cherokee. my mothers mother was jewish, and through my grandmothers line i am realted to A. Geiger (leader of the reform movement).

i did a whole geneaology project and then a rabbi looked at it and informed me that i was jewish. what a surprise! so i took on all the mitzvot that i previously thought did not apply to me, and ironically i fel bad for not following them before this because i believed God was calling me to follow the dietary laws and such, but my pastor told me not to because they were abolished!

again, i will be writing Recollections soon. i will tell you what section my "revelation" will be in after i write it.

shalom