The guilt of the forefathers.

[lawrenceofisrael]

This one is a very serious question that kept me busy for the last week.
From the 30.th of juli to the 5.th of august i´ve been traveling through poland with a group of people from germany, switzerland, austria, france and israel to visit the death camps of the nazis.
We also met a Holocaust survivor and her family which was a deeply affecting experience.
As we know states that the guilt of the fathers will last to the third and/or fourth generation ( that´d be me cause im three or four generations away from those involved.
That means that theoretically i am cursed because of their cruel crimes.
But now that i have seriously repented and cried out to the lord and proclaimed that i am different is there any chance that this curse can still be upon me? Or did Yeshua´s blood take it completely away from me?
Thanks for any answers.
Peace and blessings be upon us all

[Mark]

Hi Lawrence,

First you need to take an honest look at the text from an outside perspective. What I mean is, your use of the word "curse" isn't quite appropriate. The word found in my Bible is "visit" the iniquities of the fathers upon their children to the third and fourth generation.

Do the sins of your fathers and forefathers bear direct consequences upon your life and circumstances? Absolutely! So do mine. So do all of ours. Yet, this is not a declaration that the descendants of evil doers are not granted forgiveness.

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
(Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV)

[alon]

This is a question that bothers many people; and many have trouble reconciling it. Why, and how does God visit the sins of the fathers onto the children? The answer as I understand is He doesn't, as Mark pointed out above. But He does know how our minds work and what will effect us negatively. He knows how and why sin is repeated. The theological/psychological term I would like to point out here is "Transgenerational Sin." Sin that is handed down by our parents, particularly our fathers as attitudes which repeat generation to generation until someone breaks the cycle. These are typically the result of wrongs done to us which leave deep psychological and emotional scars. And the key to breaking the cycle is forgiveness- the kind we can only achieve with the help of the Ruach.

Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

"What we do not forgive, we carry with us," Ed Cole. It grates on our soul and we "own" that sin. This is how attitudes are engendered in us that effect everyone around us, especially our children. We not only hold these attitudes, we sear them onto the psyche of our children, as they were seared onto ours. Breaking the cycle takes work, and the hand of God in your life.

If anyone wants to really understand this better, I'd recommend reading "The Forgotten Blessing" by Aaron Fruh. The best place I've found to buy it is shop.elshaddaiministries.us/Forgotten-Blessing-ISBN-978-0-8007-9402-6.htm. It is Mark Biltz site- he's Hebrew Roots so you have to be careful (avoid the Blood Moons nonsense for starters), but he does have some good resources reasonably priced.

Another good resource for men, or for single moms who want to better understand their sons is "Wild at Heart" by John Eldridge. Amazon or Barnes and Noble usually have some good second hand copies listed. We bought a bunch for a men's ministry like this, and very few were any the worse for wear.

Dan C
edit: Obviously the decisions made by our fathers as well as our forefathers can and does effect us in many ways. But I don't think this is what is meant in the OP here. The "sins" of our fathers are those things which harm us or others either spiritually or physically, and which fly in the face of God. These we are only punished for if we adopt the attitudes which cause the sin; in effect if we "own" the sin ourselves. It is our responsibility to break the cycle of transgenerational sin.

[Elizabeth]

"...for I the Lord your G-d am a jealous G-d visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."
Exodus 20: 5-6

If you consider the mess people bring children into and raise them in, the fact that he says he "visits the iniquity to the third and fourth generation" may actually offer mankind hope. He may be showing mercy by limiting the iniquity mankind is so competent at spreading. Imagine if we were left to suffer the full limitless consequence of our iniquity.  If G-d's goal was to destroy us I don't think he would have to do anything. In iniquity, we would destroy ourselves. Even in this verse, I think we can find His grace.

Just to further the conversation a bit, don't forget he will show steadfast love to thousands of those who love Him and keep His commandments.

We can help our family overcome sin and the consequences of sin by loving G-d and keeping His commandments. He hears our prayers and cares about what we care about because He loves us.  One prayer truly prayed has absolutely unfathomable reach because G-d is a faithful G-d. He cannot forget it. Sin, however, He tells us He can.

[jimmie]

[/p]

"...for I the Lord your G-d am a jealous G-d visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Want to break the curse? Don't hate God.

[alon]

Feb 1, 2015 20:08:32 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

If you consider the mess people bring children into and raise them in, the fact that he says he "visits the iniquity to the third and fourth generation" may actually offer mankind hope. He may be showing mercy by limiting the iniquity mankind is so competent at spreading. Imagine if we were left to suffer the full limitless consequence of our iniquity.  If G-d's goal was to destroy us I don't think he would have to do anything. In iniquity, we would destroy ourselves. Even in this verse, I think we can find His grace.

That He "visits the iniquity to the third and fourth generation" I take to be a euphemism for the fact these sins are handed down generation to generation. It can be more, or less, depending on us. And yes, left to run its course the sin would only get worse, eventually destroying us. His grace is evident in the fact we can, with the help of His Spirit, break the cycle of sin.

Just to further the conversation a bit, don't forget he will show steadfast love to thousands of those who love Him and keep His commandments.

We can help our family overcome sin and the consequences of sin by loving G-d and keeping His commandments. He hears our prayers and cares about what we care about because He loves us. One prayer truly prayed has absolutely unfathomable reach because G-d is a faithful G-d. He cannot forget it. Sin, however, He tells us He can.

When and how the cycle is broken depends on us. We have to make the decision to ask His help in changing our hearts and minds and most importantly our attitudes. I tried to change, to break the cycle my own way. I didn't do to my children the things which were done to me. But I didn't change my attitude; in fact, that got worse to compensate, and as a result I passed on the anger and disregard for authority to my children. Nature abhors a vacuum, so something will fill the void when you try and remove part of the equation on your own- usually something evil. But if we make the effort and seek His help, His grace is manifest in that He does forget our sin as He helps us to overcome it.

Dan C

[alon]

Feb 2, 2015 5:51:08 GMT -8 jimmie said:

"...for I the Lord your G-d am a jealous G-d visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Want to break the curse? Don't hate God.

If only it were that simple. My father loved God, yet he passed on a lot of transgenerational sin to all his children. Not hating God is a really good, and necessary start. But it isn't the whole answer.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

I think many people love G-d, but those who truly love G-d with all their heart will find their way to keeping His commandments.  Keeping His commandments is also a stipulation in the verse.

I feel like I am enduring the consequences of generational sin because I have to fight so hard to try and keep His commandments. I can't give my children the kind of -observant childhood I desire for them.  At this point, all I can do is show them the option and a glimpse of the blessing in keeping .  Therefore, I pray for my children to love G-d. I know if they do, they will find their way to keeping His commandments because that is the fruit of truly loving G-d.

I also think we need to have a longer term perspective on this issue. If we pray for the wellbeing of our children and their good, we are also praying for the wellbeing of their children and the one's they will love. That is simply because their wellbeing is meshed with the wellbeing of the one's they love. It may take several generations to break the cycle, but we know G-d hears the prayers of those who love Him.  He is a faithful and eternal G-d .  We know if we pray in and for His will, He will answer.  It simply may take more than our life time for our prayers to bare fruit. Meanwhile, I really think we may be the fruit of someone else's.

[garrett]

I used to think that generational-type curses were a bit of a silly myth. But the choices and sins of my parents and grandparents have an impact on me today. I still find myself fighting off behaviors, sinful ones, and attitudes that I was raised within. This stuff almost seems to go into our DNA. But, we do have the choice to fight against the sinful part of the DNA, so to speak.

Realizing this part of yourself and trying to act on it is hard, but it's much more rewarding than being stuck. I have always noticed how the behavior of my grandparents was something my parents disliked and wanted nothing to do with. Now I see it more than ever in their lives as time goes by, unchecked. It's frustrating.

But!!! I don't plan on going that way. G-d will help you redeem at least some of this time if you're willing.

This has been the case in my life for the past few years.

[jimmie]

Feb 2, 2015 13:08:45 GMT -8 alon said:

Want to break the curse? Don't hate God.

If only it were that simple. My father loved God, yet he passed on a lot of transgenerational sin to all his children. Not hating God is a really good, and necessary start. But it isn't the whole answer.

Dan C
[/quote]

Your father passing on the sin nature is quite different from a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate him. God never said that he would visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children of those who love him.

Jimmie

[alon]

Feb 3, 2015 7:04:39 GMT -8 jimmie said:

Feb 2, 2015 13:08:45 GMT -8 alon said:

Want to break the curse? Don't hate God.

If only it were that simple. My father loved God, yet he passed on a lot of transgenerational sin to all his children. Not hating God is a really good, and necessary start. But it isn't the whole answer.

Dan C

Your father passing on the sin nature is quite different from a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate him. God never said that he would visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children of those who love him.

Jimmie

1st off, the passing on of a “sin nature” is not the same thing as transgenerational sin. We have a sin nature, which IS necessary for transgenerational sin to take hold. But transgenerational sin is attitudes that we were taught; attitudes that were put on us because of hurts done to us while growing up. This is why those who were abused as children tend to be abusers themselves, and the cycle repeats one generation to the next. As I said earlier, God knows how our minds work. He knows how these sins tend to repeat. And fortunately for us He knows how to break the cycle, but we have to choose to do the work, to partner with God to do a work in us.

If you read, you’ll see that both Mark and I have made the point that this isn’t God passing this on. It is our fathers and ourselves. I also acknowledged that there can be overt consequences to sin that our children must deal with. Jews born in exile are a good example. They had to pay for the sins of their fathers. This is one meaning- the p’shat, or simple reading. Transgenerational sin is a type of a deeper meaning.

However for those who love God there is a remedy. Those who truly love God and want to break the cycle can, with His help. And in this way the sins of his fathers are not held to him or subsequent generations of his children.

Dan C

[garrett]

Hi Everyone,

I have been really busy with work lately (and trying to find NEW work) and I've wanted to at least add a suggested biblical passage that might apply to this topic.

Maybe Ezekiel, Chapter 19 - all of it - would be of help with this topic, which addressess the wages of sin and the generations of more than just one man. Please read it and tell me what you think.

Punchline - G-d says, "Turn and live!"

Pretty good stuff.

[garrett]

CORRECTION! Chapter 18!!!!!!! I told you I've been working too much

[alon]

(garrett, you can change a mistake by hitting the "Modify" button at the top right of the post screen. Trust me, I use that one a lot. As a courtesy, if changing other than font, typos, spelling, or other inconsequential stuff, I'll add an "edit:" note as a PS if the post has been there any time or if someone has answered the post. Just FYI, and for others new here as well.)

Ezekiel 18 could be titled a "Salvation Chapter" as it discusses who will be saved, and who will not. Bottom line is we will all be held accountable for our own actions, and we all have the opportunity to do good in the sight of God and live. Conversely we also have the opportunity to do bad and die. Doing good by the way is keeping His mitzvoth- all of them. Yehezquel doesn't say that per-sey, but he does describe it.

I came across something in studying the par'sha this week. "To the third and fourth generations" is a euphemism, not a certainty. These are the generations a person is likely to see in their own lifetime; the ones you are likely to become acquainted with. The ones you will love personally. You will see the effects of the passing of transgenerational sin to these descendants, and your only hope is that your own children will break the chain.

If you do not break the chain in time, then it will be out of your control. Someone else must now do what you would not; someone with free will and who like you from the perspective of youth cannot yet see the consequences of their actions. You can tell them, but we all know how well young adults listen. They listened in their formative years, and learned first hand by your words and actions. It is far easier to teach them right at this stage than to correct them later.

Dan C

edit: note there is a time stamp for the last "edit" I made to this post, lower right.

[garrett]

Dan, that makes sense. Thanks for the input

P.S. thanks for the fyi on the modify button. It's always the things right in front of me that I miss..