dave
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Post by dave on Aug 7, 2009 19:17:40 GMT -8
I'm not sure if this has been specifically covered yet or not, so let's do it. I can' find the exact passage in the  , but it basically only says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as he would a woman. It doesn't actually say anything about a woman laying with another woman. However I did come across this verse, 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites," I ask this, because my sister is gay, and she actually brought this subject up the other day when I was explaining my feelings on homosexuality. Unfortunately I hadn't come across the verse in Corinthians. If the whole of the bible works together, then does the term "homosexual" in Corinthians only mean two men? Or is it another one of those things that are just implied because of the particular audience? Dave |
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Post by Mark on Aug 9, 2009 5:56:58 GMT -8
The same argument is used in all sorts of rediculous circumstances: The Bible never says that I can't pour scalding water down the leg of a cat while hanging it from a tree overhanging the freeway... c'mon. Leviticus 18:22 is understood universally (except within the pro-homosexual community) to be speaking of lesbianism as well. This is confirmed in Talmud (Aharei Mot 9:8). "'You should not follow the acts of Egypt or the acts of the land of Canaan (Lev. 18:3)' - Is it conceivable that the Israelites should not build buildings or plant plantings as the Egyptians and Canaanites do? The states: 'You should not follow their practices' - implying 'I, God, have declared prohibited only the practices which they and their ancestors established.' And what did they do? A man would marry a man and a woman would marry a woman, a man would marry a woman and her daughter, and a woman would be married to two men. Regarding these it is said: 'You shall not follow their practices.'" |
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Post by Golfnerd on Aug 9, 2009 6:06:57 GMT -8
here is another passage of Scripture that I think CLEARLY states God's position on this...
(Rom 1:22 KJV) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(Rom 1:23 KJV) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(Rom 1:24 KJV) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
(Rom 1:25 KJV) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom 1:26 KJV) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
(Rom 1:27 KJV) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
(Rom 1:28 KJV) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(Rom 1:29 KJV) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
(Rom 1:30 KJV) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
(Rom 1:31 KJV) Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
(Rom 1:32 KJV) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
and here's another translation for those who don't like the KJV -
(Rom 1:22 HCSB) Claiming to be wise, they became fools
(Rom 1:23 HCSB) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.
(Rom 1:24 HCSB) Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves.
(Rom 1:25 HCSB) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
(Rom 1:26 HCSB) This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual intercourse for what is unnatural.
(Rom 1:27 HCSB) The males in the same way also left natural sexual intercourse with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty for their perversion.
(Rom 1:28 HCSB) And because they did not think it worthwhile to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong.
(Rom 1:29 HCSB) They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, disputes, deceit, and malice. They are gossips,
(Rom 1:30 HCSB) slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
(Rom 1:31 HCSB) undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, and unmerciful.
(Rom 1:32 HCSB) Although they know full well God's just sentence--that those who practice such things deserve to die--they not only do them, but even applaud others who practice them.
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dave
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Posts: 34
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Post by dave on Aug 10, 2009 7:12:42 GMT -8
I guess there are just some people that you can argue a point with until you are blue in the face and they still won't agree with you. Even if you can prove it biblically. It just makes it very hard when it's close family. I tried to explain to my sister that I saw homosexuality as no different than someone with a drug or alcohol addiction. I don't hate the person for it, I hate the sin. But when you are dealing with a sibling relationship, it's not as easy as just agreeing to disagree.
It's hard to show love to someone who thinks that you're intolerant. Has anyone else ever gone through something like this?
Dave
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Aug 14, 2009 1:44:55 GMT -8
I know what you mean brother dave. Although im not in any situation equal to yours it´s hard to make clear to people that you accept them but not their lifestyle. Sometimes people around me think that i have a picture of me as the perfect human being (which is not the case ) just because i express my reservations that i might have on certain parts of their life.
I think you should before telling her to change her sexual orientation proof to her that the bible is the only scripture from God. Cause if she understands who created her and his characteristics and if she understands the content of the Shema Yisrael the consequence will be that she´ll change her behaviour ( as much as everyone of us did).
I´d like to add a few verses of the scripture here from 1. Corinthian chapter 6 verse 9-11
"Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God. Such were some of you, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Yeshua, and in the Spirit of our God"
The last sentences are the most important one for your situation. God forgives all sin through Yeshua if she´ll confess and she can be cleansed by the Ruach Hakodesh.
Never give up on her but increase you´re hope.
Peace and blessings be upon us all.
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Post by Mark on Aug 14, 2009 3:45:19 GMT -8
I'm sorry, Dave. I thought that I had responded to your last post but I guess I didn't. One of the traps we fall into is an old addage, "Hate the sin but love the sinner." There is certainly some truth to it; but the truth is not in the application that we tend to use. The truth is that her homosexuality is none of your business. Nor is any specific sin issue any of mine. Now, if the relationship requires your embracing what the Bible clearly calls sin as a legitimate lifestyle, this is a completely different issue. If so, it can often be silenced by telling her that you love, you have always loved her and you will always love her. But why does she have to feel like she has to have your permission to live the way that she beleives she should live? This sort of question might her allow her to realize that she is the one with the isssue. Yet, at the same time, many times we find ourselves condescending toward those whose belief system is follows a different set of rules than our own. Does that make us less sinners then they? Not if we understand , nor the teachings of Paul: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Rom 3:9-11) It is not by design that our pursuit of righteousness pushes us away from unbelievers. The design is that unbelievers will see the value in God's truth and follow after. Two obstacles prevent this from happenning: one is that those around us are committed to their sin and caustic toward anything that reveals their darkness. The other is our own arrogance. Usually, a failure in relationships is a combination of these two. Of course, this is all easy for me to say sitting at my dining room table 2000 miles away. You have no idea who I am or what my life is like. However, you may rest assured that what I am suggesting is from very personal experience of love and loss, anger and rejection- years later coming to realize that it was really I who was doing the rejecting and driving a wedge into my relationships. I also don't know you nor the circumstances you are living in. I'm not getting reports on what is going on inside your head (though I have at times been so accused). I'd just ask you to prayerfully consider the possibilities. Mark |
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dave
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Posts: 34
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Post by dave on Aug 14, 2009 4:41:47 GMT -8
Lawrence, thank you for your words of encouragement. When me sister first "came out" we had a talk. I told her that I love her with all my heart, and there is nothing that she could do to change that, and that I'd always be there for her no matter what. But with that being said, I told her that I didn't approve of it and thought it was wrong according to God's Word. That was the end of that for a while. It never really came up again until the other day when she was visiting. I don't remember how it even came up, but she asked me why I thought it was wrong. She asked me without provocation. I told her that it is not biblically correct. Then she asked me if I was referring to old or new testament, at which point she mentioned the fact that the is only specific to male homosexuality. At that point I didn't really see the need to argue the point. Unfortunately I didn't have any of the new testament verses on hand to clear up the confusion. Dave |
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Post by alon on Jun 29, 2015 15:41:02 GMT -8
Scriptural references have already been given, so I won't go there. But those scriptures are God's laws, and man doesn't get to choose which laws he is responsible to obey. I don't care if your Bible is redacted to make homos OK and your bishop tells you can do it and the state marries you and he says you can do what you like, you will one day stand before the Elohim who created you and give an account.
As to the aforementioned argument that because the Bible mentions men and not women it is OK for women to be gay, the principle of Kelal uferat (The general and the particular) says that a particular rule may be extended into a general principle. (5th rule of Hillel). Kind of takes care of that one.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 29, 2015 16:59:59 GMT -8
I think we have to know that G-d gives us all freedom to disagree with him in this life. If it is happening, it means he can handle it and so can we. I personally think the biggest issue believers have to overcome is our own hypocracy. We should have been doing a lot more to protect marriage and family before this happened for ourselves. We should have been setting an undeniable example of G-d's wisdim and grace in marriage and family. In general we didn't hold our own selves accountable to the word and will of G-d. We have no credibility and are easily criticized because our only argument is the will of G-d, but we ourselves haven't been keeping it. We are the ones who left marriage and family open to attack in my opinion. Best defense, again my opinion, strengthen our own families according to G-d's laws. We can't get discouraged; just more encouraged and grateful G-d gave us His law.
What has been really revealing to me is how many people who consider themselves believers are so thrown. There seems to be a sifting taking place. I am shocked how many of my Christisn friends and people I grew up with honestly think this is the right thing. It is mind boggeling how far we have gotten from G-d. Scary.
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Post by jimmie on Jun 30, 2015 14:51:01 GMT -8
For the life of me, I don’t understand why the gays want state sanctioned unions/marriages. Why would anyone want to pay the government a fee/tax for the union/marriage then have to pay the government a fee/tax to dissolve it? Plus have to pay an attorney to navigate the legal system. And then the government still gets to decide how to divide up the remainder of the assets. Who in their right mind would want to join such a system? I guess it is good business for members of the government and the Bar Association. One should always be careful what one asks for. Because one might just get it.
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Post by alon on Jun 30, 2015 15:51:48 GMT -8
For the life of me, I don’t understand why the gays want state sanctioned unions/marriages. Why would anyone want to pay the government a fee/tax for the union/marriage then have to pay the government a fee/tax to dissolve it? Plus have to pay an attorney to navigate the legal system. And then the government still gets to decide how to divide up the remainder of the assets. Who in their right mind would want to join such a system? I guess it is good business for members of the government and the Bar Association. One should always be careful what one asks for. Because one might just get it.
2. to throw it in God's face
3. to legitimize their perversion
4. to destroy traditional marriage
5. because if they are legally married, employers must now pay their "spouse's" medical and other benefits
6. because their partner in perversion now has survivors rights
7. because loan agencies must now consider both incomes and other things reserved for a married couple
8. because now they can adopt anywhere in the US
9. because now we must all make concessions to them- you better believe they are federally protected animals now, with more rights than a straight couple
There are a lot of reasons, most of which effect your pocketbook (your insurance premiums go up to help pay for them), your freedom (try even looking at them wrong and you'll be sued), and your beliefs (traditional marriage has now been disrespected by this country). You can watch for schools and other institutions to get even worse with gay education. And they effect God because their father the devil now has a major recruitment advantage.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Jun 30, 2015 16:41:19 GMT -8
I think we have to know that G-d gives us all freedom to disagree with him in this life. If it is happening, it means he can handle it and so can we. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2015 5:11:51 GMT -8
I meant "we" in the sense that in the worlds eyes we will likely be identified with them. It is one thing to fumble around seeking God in our imperfection and another thing to convolute the truth and walk around pointing fingers at other people while thinking you have it perfectly figured out. Christians have a plank in their eye preaching the will of G-d while having systematically tried to do away with it.
No body is perfect, and that's why fellow believers need to compassionately deal with the difficult issues in our own community. They have been preaching grace to themselves, which often ultimately seems to be defined as unaccountability. It is astounding what gets overlooked within the church. Now they are trying to hold the world accountable to G-d's will without them having lived it. They are more concerned with man's law than G-d's.
Because in the worlds eyes we will be identified with Christianity, the hypocrisy is also our obstacle to overcome. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if Christians are driven back to G-d and His law, and the nation has a better example of G-d's wisdom and way. I think our own repentance as a community of believers would go a lot farther than putting any faith in the Supreme Court.
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, but it basically only says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as he would a woman. It doesn't actually say anything about a woman laying with another woman. However I did come across this verse, 
