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Post by bryce on Nov 17, 2009 20:54:42 GMT -8
So far as the government is concerned, you’re allowed one legal marriage; but it doesn’t matter how many women you choose to have in your home, sharing an intimate relationship. No, that is wrong. Bigamy is being legally married to more than one spouse. Polygamy is being married to more than one person whether the marriage is considered legal in the eyes of the Law or not. This is a Canadian definition, but the American one is similar: duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/P/Polygamy.aspxAs we read through the discussion that has taken place, there is notably a presumption that polygamy was commonplace and normal in biblical times. I have never said that polygyny was commonplace in Biblical times. Only men who were rich enough to support more than one wife could even consider it. It is on the basis of this presumption that those promoting polygamy (or at least defending the principle of it) must base their entire argument. It is presumed that the man who captures a woman in battle who he desires must already be married, or the man who catches a young woman in the field must already be married. It is noteworthy that throughout Scripture, the presumption is exactly the opposite: in Proverbs 8, the man is encouraged to be satisfied with the wife (singular) of his youth. The man shall be joined together with the woman and the two shall become one flesh. What? We pointed out that men who were already married who were in those situations would have more than one wife. I really don't have any idea how you could say that we were saying that a man "must already be married". |
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Post by bryce on Nov 17, 2009 21:06:38 GMT -8
Paul, in 1st Corinthians 7, goes so far as to say that the man’s body is not his own but belongs to his wife.
1Corinthians 7:2, YLT
"and because of the whoredom let each man have his OWN [Gk. heautou, Strong's #1438] wife, and let each woman have her PROPER [Gk. idios, Strong's #2398] husband;"
The Greek word "heautou" is a word that can imply EXCLUSIVE ownership. Please, carefully follow along to see how this word is used in the Bible.
Luke 14:26, NKJV
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his OWN [Gk. heautou] life also, he cannot be My disciple."
Romans 4:19, NKJV
And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his OWN [Gk. heautou] body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.
1Corinthians 13:4-5, NKJV
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its OWN [Gk. heautou], is not provoked, thinks no evil;
Each of the above examples of "heautou" implies EXCLUSIVE ownership of the object in question. The examples are: "his own life"; "his own body"; and "seek its own".
The Greek word "idios" can speak of a common or joint ownership. Here are some examples of "idios" in Scripture:
Matthew 9:1, NKJV
So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His OWN [Gk. idios] city.
John 4:44, NKJV
For Jesus Himself testified that a prophet has no honor in his OWN [GK. idios] country.
Acts 2:6, NKJV
And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his OWN [Gk. idios] language.
Acts 13:36, NKJV
For David, after he had served his OWN [Gk. idios] generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;
Acts 25:19, NKJV
but had some questions against him about their OWN [Gk. idios] religion and about a certain Jesus, who had died, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.
Romans 11:24, NKJV
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their OWN [Gk. idios] olive tree?
Romans 14:4, NKJV
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his OWN [Gk. idios] master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
1 Corinthians 4:12, NKJV
And we labor, working with our OWN [Gk. idios] hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure;
1 Corinthians 7:4, NKJV
The wife does not have authority over her OWN [Gk. idios] body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his OWN [Gk. idios] body, but the wife does.
1 Corinthians 14:35, NKJV
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their OWN [Gk. idios] husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
Ephesians 5:22, NKJV
Wives, submit to your OWN [Gk. idios] husbands, as to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:24, NKJV
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their OWN [Gk. idios] husbands in everything.
Colossians 3:18, NKJV
Wives, submit to your OWN [Gk. idios] husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 2:15, NKJV
who killed both the Lord Jesus and their OWN [Gk. idios] prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
1 Timothy 6:1, NKJV
Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their OWN [Gk. idios] masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.
Titus 2:5, NKJV
to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their OWN [Gk. idios] husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
Titus 2:9, NKJV
Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their OWN [Gk. idios] masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back,
1 Peter 3:1, NKJV
Wives, likewise, be submissive to your OWN [Gk. idios] husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
1 Peter 3:5, NKJV
For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their OWN [Gk. idios] husbands,
Jude 1:6, NKJV
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their OWN [Gk. idios] abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
So, we see the concept of a SHARED, COMMON, or JOINT ownership carried by the Greek word "idios". This is not the same as the EXCLUSIVE ownership seen with "heautou". So, how does this deeper understanding of the two different types of ownership affect our understanding of 1Corinthians 7:2?
1Corinthians 7:2, NKJV
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his OWN [exclusive] wife, and let each woman have her OWN [not necessarily exclusive] husband.
A husband is the leader in the home, or the master of the household. His wife is under his headship. Just as "no man can serve two masters", so no wife can serve two husbands. Can a master lead more than one person? Certainly. So, a man can have more than one wife. |
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Post by bryce on Nov 17, 2009 21:11:31 GMT -8
Yet, telling in my mind, is that they made no effort to defend the actions of David when I opened a unique thread on the subject- apparently it was only important to them in the context that supported their own agenda. |
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Post by davidwiseman on Nov 18, 2009 4:18:22 GMT -8
Fascinating discussion, gentlemen. I have one quick question for Bryce: would you say that polygyny is actually encouraged in the TN"K, or that it is simply permissible?
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Post by Mark on Nov 18, 2009 4:52:09 GMT -8
Bryce, There's more to reading Greek than opening a Strong's concordance and picking out the definition that fits your agenda. The hollowness of your argument is absolutely profound- that the verses that you have chosen to justify your position have absolutely nothing to do with the subject you are trying to defend. In true form you have ignored the application of 1st Corinthians 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. (1 Corinthians 7:4 KJV) I'll ask you directly, how can a man not have "power of his own body" that power belonging to his wife (his first wife) and still be able to seek out a second wife? I'll allow you the option out, since the question is rhetorical. The Greek doesn't allow the option. He has "no power": literally, no authority over the usage of his own body. He has given that to his wife. Do you see the eisegesis of your position, trying to find holes in the clear message of God's Word? How can you love your wife as your own flesh and not be satisfied with her, seeking out another? How can you love your wife so as to give yourself to her, as Messiah does and did for the Church (Eph. 5) but try to find a way to justify intimacy with another woman? You can't do it. A master can have more than one servant... is that all your wife is to you? A master does not lay down his life for his servants. How interesting that you have no interest in discussing of viewing other subjects in this forum. Have you no other interest or passion in God's Word than supporting this agenda? I noticed that you had started your own discussion board in Facebook to promote discussion of  (exactly the mission of this board) was that to lure folks into your promotion of this agenda? |
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Post by bryce on Nov 18, 2009 5:19:57 GMT -8
Fascinating discussion, gentlemen. I have one quick question for Bryce: would you say that polygyny is actually encouraged in the TN"K, or that it is simply permissible? |
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Post by bryce on Nov 18, 2009 5:30:08 GMT -8
I've been informed by a Jewish friend of mine that the tradition amongst some Sephardic Jews in Israel who continue to practice polygyny is that the first wife plays an active role in selecting additional wives. I think there is a lot of wisdom in that, as it would probably be unwise to marry a woman your wife didn't approve of.
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Post by davidwiseman on Nov 18, 2009 5:38:57 GMT -8
Fascinating discussion, gentlemen. I have one quick question for Bryce: would you say that polygyny is actually encouraged in the TN"K, or that it is simply permissible? I've heard arguments trying to say that the originally forbade polygynous marriage, and I think those are simply attempts to make the more acceptable to our modern sensibilities. However, your statement that it is "just as permissible" also ignores the evidence. Polygyny is tightly restricted, forbidding the marriage of sisters, forbidding kings from "multiplying" wives, and issuing strict inheritance laws to accompany polygyny, which implies that this practice creates inheritance problems that did not exist otherwise. So I disagree for these reasons with your idea that it is "just as" permitted. It is not. It is much more restricted. We must note also, along with the sages, that there is no positive example of polygyny in the TN"K, and there are very few examples that are even permissible. Abraham (if this can be counted as polygyny) married his sister, and then a foreigner. Esau married two foreigners. Jacob married two sisters. Shlomo multiplied wives, etc. The clear message that is relayed through the TN"K is that polygyny is a bad, though permissible, idea. I would interpret Paul along the same lines as I interpret Yeshua's statement about "an eye for an eye." Paul is pointing out the negative attitude in the toward this kind of marriage. He is arguing just as Yeshua did about retribution. Yes, technically, it is permissible. I can't legally stop you. But it misses the whole point that the is communicating. On the other hand, I am going to agree with Mark about your Greek. Your argument isn't going to hold water. You can try to use Strongs and carefully selected verses to prove a point about usage, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just plain bad Greek. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to studying for a Greek quiz. (ironically enough) |
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Post by davidwiseman on Nov 18, 2009 5:40:15 GMT -8
I've been informed by a Jewish friend of mine that the tradition amongst some Sephardic Jews in Israel who continue to practice polygyny is that the first wife plays an active role in selecting additional wives. I think there is a lot of wisdom in that, as it would probably be unwise to marry a woman your wife didn't approve of. Is this Jewish friend Israeli? Because polygyny is illegal in Israel. |
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Post by bryce on Nov 18, 2009 6:25:46 GMT -8
However, your statement that it is "just as permissible" also ignores the evidence. Polygyny is tightly restricted... We must note also, along with the sages, that there is no positive example of polygyny in the TN"K, and there are very few examples that are even permissible.
How did King Solomon come to exist? How about the prophet Samuel? How did our Messiah come to exist? How about the 12 sons of Israel? All of these people were the result of polygyny amongst their ancestors. How is that not positive?
Marriage is holy. Hashem provides commandments to protect the holiness of marriage whether it is monogamous or polygynous.On the other hand, I am going to agree with Mark about your Greek. Your argument isn't going to hold water. |
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Post by bryce on Nov 18, 2009 6:38:30 GMT -8
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Post by davidwiseman on Nov 18, 2009 8:13:40 GMT -8
However, your statement that it is "just as permissible" also ignores the evidence. Polygyny is tightly restricted... Actually, regarding a man and his aunt, that wasn't legal when Moses was alive, either, but that's a different issue entirely. I do not deny that monogamous marriage is tightly restricted. What I said is that polygyny is even more restricted. It's position amongst thematically related family laws also implies that it leads to family strife. cum hoc ergo propter hoc. Where we have a 100% correlation we may make a "propter hoc" statement, but not where the correlation is not 100%. Note also that I was speaking of immediate results, such as Solomon's brother dying, Judah and his brothers fighting amongst themselves, etc. Children are a blessing, but polygyny is not the only way to get them. What we do see in polygynous stories in the is a history of strife and contention. su legei hellenike? |
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ginny
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by ginny on Nov 18, 2009 10:21:23 GMT -8
I have an opinion on this subject: 1Ti 1:6 which some, having missed the goal, turned aside to senseless talk, 1Ti 1:7 wishing to be teachers of , understanding neither what they say nor concerning what they strongly affirm. 2Ti 2:14 Remind them of this, earnestly witnessing before the Master, not to wage verbal battles – which is useless – to the overthrowing of the hearers. 2Ti 2:15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to Elohim, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly handling the Word of Truth. 2Ti 2:16 But keep away from profane, empty babblings, for they go on to more wickedness, Tit 3:9 But keep away from foolish questions, and genealogies, and strife and quarrels about the , for they are unprofitable and useless. quoted from e-Sword (The Scriptures 1998) |
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veggirl
Full Member
Greetings!
Posts: 103
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Post by veggirl on Nov 23, 2009 11:49:18 GMT -8
So who is for polygyny and who is not? I was thinking that this forum was closed.. I am not sure whys it still open but this makes people up-set! Like me. having more then one wife is gross.. Its Gods law we are to have ONE wife and one husband.. Why can't people understand this.. THE LAW~~  I am sure many people will not agree with me ~ Oh well.. Peace |
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Post by davidwiseman on Nov 23, 2009 15:52:23 GMT -8
So who is for polygyny and who is not? I was thinking that this forum was closed.. I am not sure whys it still open but this makes people up-set! Like me. having more then one wife is gross.. Its Gods law we are to have ONE wife and one husband.. Why can't people understand this.. THE LAW~~ I am sure many people will not agree with me ~ Oh well.. Peace I don't think we should oversimplify this issue. I agree with you completely when you say that it's gross. When you say that it's against God's Law, I have to disagree. I am not in favor of polygyny, but it is also not *completely* forbidden in the . (note that I emphasize "completely") |
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(exactly the mission of this board) was that to lure folks into your promotion of this agenda?
