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Post by Mark on Aug 15, 2009 16:32:26 GMT -8
And David and his men went up, and invaded the Geshurites, and the Gezrites, and the Amalekites: for those nations were of old the inhabitants of the land, as thou goest to Shur, even unto the land of Egypt. And David smote the land, and left neither man nor woman alive, and took away the sheep, and the oxen, and the asses, and the camels, and the apparel, and returned, and came to Achish. And Achish said, Whither have ye made a road to day? And David said, Against the south of Judah, and against the south of the Jerahmeelites, and against the south of the Kenites. And David saved neither man nor woman alive, to bring tidings to Gath, saying, Lest they should tell on us, saying, So did David, and so will be his manner all the while he dwelleth in the country of the Philistines.
(1Sa 27:8-11)
Nice, huh? I bet you never heard that one in Sunday School.
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Post by bryce on Aug 15, 2009 16:40:56 GMT -8
You didn't say why that was wrong.
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Post by bryce on Aug 15, 2009 22:17:44 GMT -8
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Post by bryce on Aug 16, 2009 4:54:48 GMT -8
Just because David murdered women and children while he lived among the Philistines doesn't in any way suggest I am not culpable should I attempt to do the same. Okay... you're saying that King David murdered women and children? Source and explanation please.
You claimed that King David murdered women and children. When asked for a source and explanation you gave a source, but no explanation. Here's what I think about all of this.
1. A minor error, but the text you provided (1 Samuel 27:8-11) says that David killed all the men and women — there is no mention of children.
2. Weren't the men and women from tribes that were enemies of Israel and subject to destruction? The Tanach clearly states that we are to kill them all when we go to war with them. I don't see how you can accuse David of MURDER when he's killing women who are Canaanites or Amalekites.
Will you quit falsely accusing our heroes of faith with crimes they did not commit?
Shalom,
brYce |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Aug 16, 2009 8:07:27 GMT -8
Yes Bryce this is absolutely right. We gotta stop believing in Humanism because it´s the enemy of the scripture.
The almighty Lord commanded the Israelites to kill everybody even the little children of the people that lived in Canaan.
Why did he command it?
Because they were extremely evil.
So what about the children?
It´s God´s decision we have to accept it for what he does is correct.
Please brothers and sisters forget Humanism which comes from Satan.
Peace and blessings be upon us.
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Post by Mark on Aug 16, 2009 15:38:07 GMT -8
Sorry, guys. God didn't tell David to kill everyone who was able to identify him as a maurauder. That's what the text says that he did. The point is that David is an example of selfishness and the most deplorable sin that we can imagine. Just because David did something doesn't suggest that it is the standard of righteousness we are to follow.
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Post by bryce on Aug 16, 2009 16:14:03 GMT -8
Sorry, guys. God didn't tell David to kill everyone who was able to identify him as a maurauder. That's what the text says that he did. The point is that David is an example of selfishness and the most deplorable sin that we can imagine. Just because David did something doesn't suggest that it is the standard of righteousness we are to follow.
Yes, it was a dark time in the life of David, but how is it MURDER for him to kill them? They were dead people walking and David did what was right in the eyes of Hashem. Those people polluted the Land. Israel would have been better off if David and his men had killed more of them.
Don't you see it as a good thing for David and his men to kill those people?
How about when Israel went to war with Midian with 12,000 men led by Pinchas? They were rebuked by Moses afterwards because they left women who weren't virgins alive and they had to do more killing.
Who are you to judge David like that? He was going through a very tough time in his life, but he was NOT A MURDERER. |
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Post by Mark on Aug 16, 2009 16:29:17 GMT -8
Bryce,
You need to read the text. David killed those people so that they couldn't finger him for ravaging the land right under King Achish's nose. He wasn't acting as a jugge of God. He was hiding from Saul. Is it righteous in the sight of God to be lying to your enemy while you sit at his table? Your attempt to validate your own position by justifying some of the saddest moments in Israel's history demonstrates the desperate condition of your faltering argument.
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Post by bryce on Aug 16, 2009 17:03:01 GMT -8
Bryce, You need to read the text. David killed those people so that they couldn't finger him for ravaging the land right under King Achish's nose. He wasn't acting as a jugge of God. He was hiding from Saul. Is it righteous in the sight of God to be lying to your enemy while you sit at his table? Your attempt to validate your own position by justifying some of the saddest moments in Israel's history demonstrates the desperate condition of your faltering argument.
I like how you've changed your tune and stopped saying that he murdered them. 
By the way, lying is a very good thing when it is done to protect the innocent. David was protecting the lives of his people by lying and saying he was attacking Israel. Didn't Rahab lie and that result in the destruction of her people? That was a righteous thing she did. I'm also glad that many Christians lied to protect Jews in Europe during WW2. I'm glad whenever a follower of Hashem lies to His enemies to protect the innocent.
The purpose of His commandments is so that we will do them and live. Violating the Shabbat or lying are all permissible if you are trying to save lives. |
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Post by Mark on Aug 16, 2009 20:09:56 GMT -8
No, Bryce. Stop trying to shift your argument. David murdered women and children. There is no contest there. It is clearly what the text says. From your response to my introduction of it, you'd never even read the story before. You don't even know your own heroes. The evidences that you have used to defend polygamy have been shot down one after another. You're running out of places to run to. David can't protect you.  denies your claims and the New Testament absolutely condemns your position. |
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Post by bryce on Aug 16, 2009 20:44:48 GMT -8
No, Bryce. Stop trying to shift your argument. David murdered women and children. There is no contest there. It is clearly what the text says. From your response to my introduction of it, you'd never even read the story before. You don't even know your own heroes. The evidences that you have used to defend polygamy have been shot down one after another. You're running out of places to run to. David can't protect you. denies your claims and the New Testament absolutely condemns your position.
In all fairness, your previous post said that David killed people, so I thought you were lightening your stance against him in light of me showing you that you were wrong. I guess it didn't occur to you that you erred.
I still can't find where it says that David killed children. Please, exactly which verse is that? I asked you to provide the verses that backed up your claim and I read them carefully. I don't understand where it says "children" there. I also looked at the context, but not as carefully as those specific verses (1 Samuel 27:8-11). Perhaps it says that he killed children somewhere in the context surrounding those verses you quoted? If so, please provide the evidence to back your claim.
Do you deny that those people he killed where from nations that Hashem commanded us to destroy? I'd really like to understand how it is that you think it was murder and not killing Hashem commanded.
I'm happy to continue discussing polygyny once I've stood up for David. I don't like it when people say untrue things about him. So, answer my questions please?
To recap, I need a specific verse that says he killed children. I also need to know whether you believe that those people he killed were from the nations that Hashem said we are to kill — obligatory war.
Thanks!
brYce |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Aug 16, 2009 23:06:22 GMT -8
It is extremely schocking what i read hear.
Mark this is not supposed to be an insult and i´ve always valued your thoughts but on this one you´re not only completely wrong but completely disrespecting against the beloved of the Lord.
Melech David (may peace and blessings be upon him) did everything for Israel. He forgave his enemies multiple times. He hosted a family member of King Shaul. He mourned for the one who killed him. Whole Israel loved him and tried to help him when he had to flee from his own son.
He is one of the most righteous people that has ever lived. If he had sinned all the time as you said he would not have become King.
That is the truth. When Israel had sinned against other nations they were punished. Melech David wasn´t instead it says in the bible that he sinned in the murder of Uriah and the adultery and in the counting thing with the Israelite army.
And that´s it.
And again this is not supposed to be an insult brother Mark but how dare you spread such obnoxious things about David (MAY PEACE AND BLESSINGS BE UPON HIM) just in order to prove your arguments against polygamy.
Please brother Mark yes we should know about what the prophets etc. did wrong in order to not do the same but to speak in a disrespectful manner of them we should really be ashamed of ourselves. Especially when the Lord himself honors him. Then you´re not speaking against David but against the Almighty.
May peace and blessings be upon us all.
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Post by bryce on Aug 17, 2009 3:54:11 GMT -8
It is extremely schocking what i read hear. Mark this is not supposed to be an insult and i´ve always valued your thoughts but on this one you´re not only completely wrong but completely disrespecting against the beloved of the Lord. Melech David (may peace and blessings be upon him) did everything for Israel. He forgave his enemies multiple times. He hosted a family member of King Shaul. He mourned for the one who killed him. Whole Israel loved him and tried to help him when he had to flee from his own son. He is one of the most righteous people that has ever lived. If he had sinned all the time as you said he would not have become King. That is the truth. When Israel had sinned against other nations they were punished. Melech David wasn´t instead it says in the bible that he sinned in the murder of Uriah and the adultery and in the counting thing with the Israelite army. And that´s it. And again this is not supposed to be an insult brother Mark but how dare you spread such obnoxious things about David (MAY PEACE AND BLESSINGS BE UPON HIM) just in order to prove your arguments against polygamy. Please brother Mark yes we should know about what the prophets etc. did wrong in order to not do the same but to speak in a disrespectful manner of them we should really be ashamed of ourselves. Especially when the Lord himself honors him. Then you´re not speaking against David but against the Almighty. May peace and blessings be upon us all.
Now, here is the testimony of Hashem concerning His servant David in 1 Kings 15:1-5:
Now in the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, the son of Nebat, Abijam became king over Judah. He reigned three years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom. He walked in all the sins of his father which he had committed before him; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, like the heart of his father David. But for David's sake the LORD his God gave him a lamp in Jerusalem, to raise up his son after him and to establish Jerusalem; because David did what was right in the sight of the LORD, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
I'm not implying that David was absolutely perfect, but he certainly didn't go around as a bandit murdering innocent people. |
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Post by Mark on Aug 17, 2009 5:38:35 GMT -8
It's a bit frustrating that you guys don't read Greek or Hebrew. David performed all the things that he was commanded to perform is different than saying David never really did anything wrong. The statement was that he was an obedient king.
Your use of that text to defend everything David ever did after admitting that it was wrong of David to lie to Achish is a bit inconsistent.
In 1st Samuel 27:11 it says that David killed everyone who would be able to identify him. That description runs pretty young. Yet, I suppose, because I included the word "children" and the text doesn't specifically say so, it's not abhorant enough that he killed every man and woman solely for the purpose that he couldn't be identified to his host.
David was a man... not God incarnate. He certainly wasn't sinless. From the tone of this discussion, the two of you seem to set him up as infallible as the Messiah, disappointingly for the purpose of shoring up your own agenda.
Bryce, there is nothing more to talk about. You've used up every single thread of text you can manipulate to promote your agenda. You've prentended to have a grasp of the Greek language, which you so obviously don't. You've tried to reason from what the text doesn't say as opposed to what it does. You've dismissed the clear passages that refute your claims. If you don't know what I'm talking about (and it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't), you need to read through what has already been written so as to accept the firm position of Scripture, not weasle out of it.
Because, I've figured out, Bryce, that this is not somethingyou are going to take to heart and you would continue this diatribe to infinittum, I'm going to lock this thread for ninety days and ask you to take the time to read these things through.
If you open another thread on this same topic, I will lock you out of this forum for the same ninety days. If anyone else has something to add to this discussion, please send me a PM and I can reopen it. Bryce, if it is reopened, I will send you an e-mail to let you know that things are going again.
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Post by Mark on Nov 16, 2009 6:51:07 GMT -8
I shut this thread down a couple of months ago because it wasn’t moving in any direction positively; but spiraling into reiterations of the same arguments. As promised, I’m re-opening it after, hopefully, there has been time to consider what has been already said.
I think many would prefer that such a discussion not even be considered; but it is a very real issue in the world today. In fact, it is not the "spiritual awakening" that some might suggest that it is, but a growing trend, significant enough to be featured last year in Vogue magazine.
Some suggest that the discussion lacks much relevance because polygamy is illegal in most developed countries. This is an ignorant position to hold. It is bigamy that is illegal, which is the attempt to maintain two distinct, legal marriages. As a matter of legal policy, it is little more than a matter of tax fraud, not unlike issuing your goldfish a social security number and claiming it as a dependent. So far as the government is concerned, you’re allowed one legal marriage; but it doesn’t matter how many women you choose to have in your home, sharing an intimate relationship.
As we read through the discussion that has taken place, there is notably a presumption that polygamy was commonplace and normal in biblical times. It certainly was normal among the variety of cultures that the Israelites invaded when they came into the land. It was common among many of the Eastern cultures under which they suffered oppression… you know, the people that Adonai specifically and repeatedly declared that the Israelites were not to follow after their example, but in so many cases, the people did anyway.
It is on the basis of this presumption that those promoting polygamy (or at least defending the principle of it) must base their entire argument. It is presumed that the man who captures a woman in battle who he desires must already be married, or the man who catches a young woman in the field must already be married. It is noteworthy that throughout Scripture, the presumption is exactly the opposite: in Proverbs 8, the man is encouraged to be satisfied with the wife (singular) of his youth. The man shall be joined together with the woman and the two shall become one flesh.
Paul, in 1st Corinthians 7, goes so far as to say that the man’s body is not his own but belongs to his wife. According to this argument, then, polygamy might only be allowable should the woman find another woman to whom she could offer her husband, not allowing the man to go out and seek out a second woman. I visited the site that Bryce linked earlier. If anything in it was telling, from my perspective, it was the absence of women in the discussion.
It was in about the 11th or 12th Century that Jewish commentators began defending the examples of the Patriarchs in such a way as to exalt them to the status of sainthood (though I’m sure they would never use that term). In these teachings, the sages take painful liberties so as to defend every action or behavior of the Hebrew fathers so as to defend their legitimacy: Abram lying to Abimelech, Isaac doing the same, Jacob deceiving his father-in-law, and Judah soliciting (who he believed to be) a prostitute. Earlier in this discussion, these gentlemen were aghast and offended that I would suggest that godly men such as David would be wrong to take on multiple wives. Yet, telling in my mind, is that they made no effort to defend the actions of David when I opened a unique thread on the subject- apparently it was only important to them in the context that supported their own agenda. The men of old whom we read of, and respect, were sinners just as we are:
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
(Act 7:51)
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denies your claims and the New Testament absolutely condemns your position. 
