Isaiah 11 : 6 Animals `torn to pieces` in Kingdom?

[applecore]

Greetings to all,
I've been a member of this site for some time now but I've never posted before so I hope I don't offend anyones beliefs or sensibility's with my question.

Q. In Isaiah chapter 11 we read concerning the Messianic Kingdom;

6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.

The last section of Ezekiel describes the Temple and its statutes and priestly functions in The Land/Messiah's kingdom. 44:31 reads `The priests shall not eat any bird or beast that has died a natural death or has been torn to pieces`.

Am I right in thinking that the `torn to pieces` (as found in Exodus etc), refers to an animal that has been killed by other animals in the wild? If so, how does that fit in with Isaiah's prophecy that the beasts, as well as people, live in harmony in The land/Messianic Kingdom? In other words, why in the Ezekiel passage is there a stipulation for such an event?

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your answers,

Craig

[Nashdude]

There's a way, I think, to reconcile the two verses---if the passage is looked upon as a prophecy rather than as a commandment, as with the verse in Isaiah.

Isaiah speaks of the wolf lying down with the lamb, and other images. This is not a commandment. God is not issuing His Will here. Instead, He is revealing the kind of world that will be---one of total peace. If, in fact, Ezekiel is looked upon in the same light, then the two verses can be reconciled. If the animal kingdom IS in such peace, then the priest will not eat an animal in suxh condition, as there would be no opportunity to do so!

I'd have to study the passages more, but that's my first impression. Hope it leads to something for you. May the Lord richly bless you.

[Mark]

Unquestionably, the Scripture is referring to two different time periods.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

[Nashdude]

Jul 6, 2008 17:19:55 GMT -8 Mark said:

Unquestionably, the Scripture is referring to two different time periods.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Good call. I didn't take that one into account.

[applecore]

Hi Nashdude and Mark.

Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts. I'm not too sure Isaiah and Ezekiel are describing two different time periods. I'll give you the reason why I believe this.

Revelation 20:2. `And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.(3).and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time`.

Messiah returns and satan is bound in the abyss for 1000 years.

20:4;`And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of G-d...and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years`

and v6; `Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of G-d and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years`

Then verse 7 states; `And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.(8).and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth`

In these verses `1000 years` is stated five times. To the best of my knowledge I don't recall numbers in Scripture (especially in prophecy) ever being symbolic. In other words the above describes a finite period following Messiah's return. In the next few verses we are told that satan gathers the nations for war, whose number `is as the sand of the sea`, and that they `compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city`. They surround those reigning with Messiah. We are told at that point `fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them`, then satan, the beast and the false prophet are `cast into the lake of fire and brimstone...and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever`.

Next comes the `great white throne` where all who are not `found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire`. We are also told `death and Hades(Sheol) were cast into the lake of fire`. From many passages in Scripture we know that Sheol/Hades is located beneath the Earth. (Bare with me, I'm getting to my point!). Revelation 21:1;

`And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more`. The Earth upon which we stand (including the newly vacated Sheol) passes away. In II Peter 3 we are told this is accomplished by fire; `But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up`.

As you pointed out mark, v21 tells us that this new time period has `no temple therein: for the Lord G-d the Almighty, and the Lamb, are the temple thereof`. Also `And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of G-d did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb`. This era is popularly known as the `eternal order`. It's the culmination of G-d's work that started in Genesis 3:6 when Adam bit into the fruit. The `and they all lived happily ever after` if you life.

The last section of Ezekiel (40-48) describes a new Temple, its measurements, instructions for the priests, and the delegation and restoration of The Land. As mentioned by Mark, this can't be the same time period because in the `eternal order` (Rev21-22) G-d and The Lamb are the Temple. Also during the tribal arrangement of the land we read (Ezekiel 48:28); `And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of Meribath-kadesh, to the brook of Egypt, unto the great sea`. From Rev 21:1 we know that in the `eternal order` there is no sea.

There is another passage as well as Isaiah 11 that mentions animals living in peace. Lets look at this first. Isaiah 65:25;

`The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah`.

At the beginning of this section we read (65:17); `For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind`. This seems to answer our problem. Could this passage and Isaiah 11 be placed in the eternal order? There is a problem with that view. A few verses later we read (65:20); `There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed`.

Two things; first we have already seen in Revelation 20, prior to the other new heaven and new Earth, that `death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire`. Death no longer exists after Revelation 21; secondly the above states `the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed`. All sinners where judged at the `great white throne`. At best we can place Isaiah 65 with the passage in II Peter.

But what about Isaiah 11 and the animals living in peace? Can this be placed into the `eternal order`? I don't believe so. In the same passage that we are told that (Isaiah 11:6) `the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid`, we are also told;

(11:11)`And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, that shall remain, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea`.

Two things should be noted here. First there is a regathering. For this to be in the same time period of when there is no Temple would mean that after the new heaven and Earth are created, `his people` would scatter themselves over the Earth and then regather themselves back to Messiah. This doesn't seem to make any sense. Also this regathering involves people coming from ` the islands of the sea` and as we have noted in the `eternal order` there is no sea. For me this shows that the Isaiah/Ezekiel prophecy can't be placed into the same time period of Revelation 21:22.

Sorry this has been so long winded. Numerous mistakes (and headaches!) in the past has taught me that without specifics prophecy can get quite confusing. Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretations or over looking something important. I look forward to hearing your replies. Thanks for taking the time to read this (lengthy) post.

[Tyler]

In reply to the original post:

Ezekiel 44:31 doesn't specifically say "torn by other animals".

It could be talking about anything from road kill to animals that were slaughtered improperly or inhumanely (like many factory slaughterhouses do today - including "kosher" ones!).

[applecore]

Your right Tyler, it could be something as simple as an animal falling off a cliff or down a mountain. The point is that the priests can't eat blemished animals. Thank you

[Mark]

Hi Craig,

You're not alone in your understanding of the time line of final days. This same perspective has been written at length over the past hundred and fifty years or so. I limit the time period to that duration because this perspective comes strongly from the dispensationalist camp and is well visualized by Clarence Larkin, if you are familiar with his work. It's interesting to note that 200 years ago, you would have been expelled from Westminster College and Seminary for using the word "rapture". It was considered heretical theology. This is somewhat understandable in how this vague idea has muddied the timeline of eschatology. If Tyler's answer works for you, that's great; but I want you to be aware that there are a number of varying understandings of how the end plays out. And, truth be told, it is nearly all speculation.

It's okay to revisit the same questions over time and see if you come up with the same answers. Never open the Word of God to a place and say to yourself, "I don't need to read that because I already understand it." You'll be amazed at the gems of truth that Adonai is revealing to you, just because you take the time to look. I say that out of personal and practical experience. I didn't have much time when I gave the Revelation passage; but over the last day, the subject has carried for me a wonderful back-of-the-mind sort of meditation on these things.

Thanks for sharing and facilitating the Lord's blessing!

Mark

[applecore]

Hi Mark,
I say this in truth; I am overjoyed to know that my question has caused you `over the last day, the subject has carried for me a wonderful back-of-the-mind sort of meditation on these things. Thanks for sharing and facilitating the Lord's blessing`. There is no greater honour and privilege than to be used by Our Father. The answer to my original question now feels (pleasantly) redundant in light of that remark.

I can't say I've ever heard of Clarence Larkin but I have a passing familiarity with dispensationism. There does seem to be some practical benefit in dividing Scripture into identifiable sections/eras, in the same way as saying the medieval, victorian or roman times neatly divides history into understandable periods by highlighting these epochs in contrast to what came before and after. As for its theological implications I can't say that I've looked into it too much. G-d's dealing with man obviously changed after certain events like the fall, flood and the cross but I'm not even sure if this is dispensationism.

`It's okay to revisit the same questions over time and see if you come up with the same answers. Never open the Word of God to a place and say to yourself, "I don't need to read that because I already understand it." You'll be amazed at the gems of truth that Adonai is revealing to you, just because you take the time to look`. Amen to that. We seem to share a love for our Fathers Word. Each night I ask that He will keep this zeal and passion in my heart for His Scripture and each day He is faithful to His promises. For me every word, every letter, every `jot and tittle` is precious as they are what G-d wants us to know. You can meditate on one chapter for a lifetime and it will still keep giving (to me this is almost tangible proof that Scripture is not man made). It's up to us to make the effort and go searching. `And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened`.

I respectfully disagree with you Mark in your opinion that doctrines, like the rapture, are a new phenomenon. The early church fathers mentioned the saints escaping the tribulation. As for when beliefs or doctrines became known or popular I don't really give that too much importance. For most of history the average man couldn't read, let alone write. If the printing press had been available from the days of David, I'm sure some people would have understood the Scriptures prophecy of Messiah's first coming. I think it no accident that about 200 years ago the average man became literate and a plethora of doctrines became known and were recorded. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think that is a good thing, just that it's understandable why we can't trace certain views that far back, or why doctrinal interpretations couldn't be fully explored.

You are right in your post about most of prophecy boiling down to speculation, but it doesn't have to be that way. A careful and disciplined approach to Scripture, reading what it says and not what we want it to say, eliminates many speculative conclusions. Many times I thought I was onto something only for some tiny detail to derail my much prized theory. Then I read or listened to that same mistaken interpretation, conveyed with much authority and conviction I might add, and I felt like slapping my forehead. It's no wonder why the laity will follow all manner of beliefs. Say something with confidence and half the battle is won! For me this is why a firm grasp of the book of Revelation is priceless. In my view the main purpose of this book is to put into chronological order all the end times prophecies scattered throughout the old testament. How, for example, could we have ever know when Joel's visions fitted into the `day of the Lord` without Revelation.

I would love to hear what eschatological view you hold Mark. Perhaps you could direct me to some books or websites that you agree with. It would be interesting to see if my views have been influenced by contemporary thought, methodology and culture. Thanks for your post and opinions my friend, I look forward to your reply,


Craig

[Nashdude]

Jul 8, 2008 6:57:01 GMT -8 applecore said:

You are right in your post about most of prophecy boiling down to speculation, but it doesn't have to be that way. A careful and disciplined approach to Scripture, reading what it says and not what we want it to say, eliminates many speculative conclusions.

Amen to this! Seek Him earnestly---according to HIS will and not your own---and He WILL be found

[Mark]

Hi Craig,

Take a look at this:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=88&page=1

After gaining a solid foundation in and Jewish history, I would recomment reading through the book of Revelation twice, then several times through the minor prophets very quickly, then through the book of Revelation once again to see what stirs up.

[applecore]

Thanks for both of your replys, the advice and the link. I've been studying the talmud, midrash, mishna, the Jewish (biblical) cultures, idioms, politics etc for some time now. It was through these that Scripture almost exploded into my face. Especialy the gospels where you can see exactly why Messiah does certain things at certain times. In particular the 3 traditional Messianic miracles and how He forces the Pharisees hand in Matt 12. I will go and check out that link. Thanks again.

[Mark]

Hi Craig,

I thought I'd add just a little something of my own perspective. I've been studying for nearly fifteen years. I have what my peers consider equivelant to a doctorate in biblical studies. For myself, I don't believe myself qualified to interpret the distinguishable messages that Adonai has left for us revealing things yet to come to the depth I think would qualify me as being competent on the subject. I'm 38 years old now, I expect, at the current rate, I may begin to have such confidence by the time I turn 85.

This is not to suggest that Adonai may not be revealing things to you specifically in ways that it is not in His economy to share with me. The Bible is a big book and if we are all learning and growing in everything the same way and at the same rate of speed, it would be gross misuse of His resources. I'm just saying be careful and don't get heady if you suddenly think you've figured something out.

There are a lot of books out there on the subject of eschatology. That's not because there are scolars who are necessarily competent in the field; it is just that tis subject sells books. It's quick and rather easy money. It's easy to be an authority on something that most scholars don't feel comfortable in their understanding. This is why I don't recommend any current authors on the subject. In order to be believeable, every lie has to be at least 80% true. 90% of all rattlesnake bite victims survive; but that doesn't stop people from wanting to avoid them. I suggest being very leery of the paperback section of your Christian Bookstore; but study the Scriptures as a part of your relationship with Adonai and He will lead you into the truth that He is revealing to you. I look forward to you sharing what you find!

Mark

[Mark]

I just wanted to add a little note, if what I say may sometimes seem like I'm not listening to all of what you are saying or that I think something about you that you may interpret as demeaning or belittling. I apologize if there is any irritation or offense as a result. The truth is, though you are usually speaking to me as an individual, I'm acutely aware that there are sometimes a hundred other people every day who are reading our dialogue. Much of the emphasis that I am often trying to make is targeted at them.

[applecore]

No need to apologize Mark, but thanks anyway. I've read many posts of yours (even printed some off) so I know where you are coming from. I believe we share the same sense of reverence for Scripture, that same sweet piercing sense of worthlessness that comes from having a relationship with the One True Living G-d. The same insatiable thirst to know Him, to be found pleasing in His sight, and to be fruitful, all for the sake of His Glory. I too am 38, but unlike you I've wasted a lot of those years. It is from bitter experience that I recognize the truth in what you say about the `pop` culture of prophecy books that litter Christian bookstores (an many of my garbage bags!).

The change came when it dawned on me that Scripture was written by Jews, in a Jewish culture, using Jewish expressions and customs, that Messiah Himself is a Jew and so on. A limited understanding of the rabbinic oral traditions (i.e. three miracles they taught that only Messiah will be able to perform; healing someone blind from birth,casting out a mute demon, healing a leper) suddenly brought the gospels into vivid focus and exposed dynamic interplays that no `popular` book had ever explained. From that moment on I found it difficult to stomach westernized expositions that I had unquestionably presumed to be true, and went off in a different direction. Suddenly their errors became glaringly obvious and I became increasingly frustrated that no one was interested in the (for want of a better word) Jewishness of Scripture. It became increasingly difficult to speak to my father and others around me. But anyway, I'm going off on a tangent here, what I'm trying to say (rather long windedly) is that I agree with you 100 percent when you say `I suggest being very leery of the paperback section of your Christian Bookstore`.

I think we (slightly) differ in our expectations regarding prophecy. I agree with you when you say `be careful and don't get heady if you suddenly think you've figured something out` (and I will keep that at the back of my mind), but I've also found that understanding certain principles greatly helps in keeping on track and from taking enticing brightly lit short cuts. For a start, never guess anything; Scripture always explains Scripture. Also symbols (9 times out of 10) are consistent throughout Scripture; Horn is always a king/kingdom or power, Stone is always Messiah etc. If they deviate then the text will either explain itself or another area of The Bible will reveal it (eg Star is always an angel but in Rev 12:1 one of Josephs dreams better fits the context). Numbers are highly symbolic (3,7,12) but when used in time lines they are literal. Case in point; Messiah's Kingdom. 1000 years is not found anywhere else in prophecy, so how are we ever to know it is not a literal 1000 years? Also a slow and careful reading of the text greatly helps. A good case in point is one of the posts above. The Isaiah/Ezekiel passages couldn't have fitted into Rev21 as Rev21 states there is no sea. This is not some mystical revelation, merely a process of elimination and cautious deduction.

Every word in Scripture is to be understood, else why would it be there? I don't believe the text is meant to be ambiguous, it is there to be meditated upon (`I have hidden Your Word in my heart`), and understood. G-d always gives us the resources to know what He is saying, else it becomes redundant. It's hard work and takes a lot of effort (and illumination) but that is down to seek hard after Him.

As regards the rapture, I'm not totally convinced of its advent. As I mentioned, the early church father (2/3 century AD) do speak of escaping the tribulation, but that is neither here or there. Who knows what Paul and the Thessalonians spoke about in person when he visited. Sometimes reading the epistles is like reading someone else's mail, you only get half of the dialog. But Scripture never leaves us tangling, somewhere else always explains. Below is a link that I found fascinating regarding this subject. It's quite long and only part of it relates to the rapture but I would be very interested to hear your views (and anyones) on what is written, especially as you say you have studied the for 15 years.
www.familyrestorationmagazine.org/tishrei/tishrei016.htm

Thanks again Mark for your responses, I look forward to your reply,

(a seperate thread dealing with this article can now be found here; theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=feasts&thread=1265&page=1 )


Craig