Proselytizing

[Sanil]

I'm not certain I'm putting this in the right place, but it was my best guess.

A common criticism of Messianic Jews that I have come across is that they are only concerned with converting Jews to Christianity. I know that this is not true, certainly not for all of us, although I'm sure it is for some.

So, some questions for people here. Do you feel it is important to "convert" non-Messianic Jews? Do you talk to them about Yeshua? To what extent is that the focus of your interactions with them?

If you do try to convince them that Yeshua is the Messiah, how would you respond to the accusations? Or do you respond at all?

Thanks.

[lawrenceofisrael]

Well thats a good point dear sister. I talked to some orthodox jews about it and some were trying to engage in a honest debate, others were starting to insult me. Some believe that Yeshua was founder of Christianity, that he instructed his followers to abolish the tenach and to massacre all jews who would not follow them. None of this is true of course but it takes a lot time to get it out of people´s heads.
Peace be upon you
Lorenz

[Mark]

It is my hope that all people should come to a knowing personal relationship with Adonai Elohim beh Yisrael (the Lord God of Israel) through the Jewish Messiah who has come in the person of Yeshua ben Yoseph veh Naztaret. However, my commitment to walk toward a Judaic lifestyle, to participate in worship according to a Hebraic pattern typical of synagogue worship is not an elaborate ploy designed to trap Jewish people into a Christian teaching. If you knew the demographics of Lebanon, Oregon, such an accusation would be rather perpsterous. There's not any real Jewish presence in this area to speak of, and certainly not any that would find any comfort in traditional Hebraic worship.

It is true that there have been organizations which have manipulated Hebrew worship for this purpose (see the thread on Jews for Jesus theloveofgod.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=denominations&action=display&thread=1661). Yet to stereo-type all Messianic Judaism by these is like ranking all who teach Kaballah by our exposure to Madonna. It's a bit unfair.

My challenge to the Jewish antagonists out there is to stop believing all the press about Yeshua and how those committed to their own agendas have manipulated His teachings and read for yourself what He is recorded as having said by those who knew Him. You'll find that He wasn't the inventor of a new religion. He wasn't a radical preacher drawing people away from . He was a Jewish rabbi who lived in a peculiar and intimate relationship with Abba Elohim. His mission was to draw us in an opportunity that we may do the same.

[veggirl]

Sanil,

In Spokane there are a lot of Messianic's but most are not hebrew ,, There American converts that follow the Messianic faith.

I never try to convert Mormons, however since I was a Mormon at one time, when I see them and there are A LOT here in Spokane wa.. I do witness to them and I never lose because the truth is in me and the truth will set them free.

In my own experience it's harder to convert christians to the Messianic faith, I know there are many christians that became messianic , the christians I know are stubborn.
They said God don't care what we eat ,, even science will tell you that it matters what we eat, and there stubborn about sabbath and the holy days.
I love the Biblical Holidays ,, because its giving thanks to our audience of one, Adonai.

How I respond: , I was a punk at one time so I love it when I meet a straight edge punk,, I am veggie also and don't drink and no coffee no tea no caffeine no drugs!
I am Some what anti-government. This is a straight edge punk life style, so it works well I meet new friends and they LOVE the Messianic faith, well maybe not all but ones I know do.
I have even had one come to fellowship she loved it.
Adonai will have to change her heart, I was just there as a servent of the lords, a witness to a sinner that needed him, we are all sinners saved my grace,, praise the lord,
In the old testament people didn't have much grace..

Peace&love Bri'gette

[ken]

Sanil,

First, it is good to be able to teach the gospel from the Tenakh (Old Testament); this is essential if you want to reach the Jewish people with the good news.

Second, it is important to understand the plight of the Jews and what has happened to them in the name of Christianity.

Third, it is important to learn and know how Christianity became a non-Jewish religion and what the differences are between what Yeshua taught and what is taught in Christian Seminaries, today and traditionally going all the way back to Africanis, Augustine and Constantine.

You might want to pickup the "Complete Jewish Bible" by David Stern; it is translated wth Jewishness instead of anti semitic ignorance, unlike most translations.

I have succesfull quoted from this Bible to Jewish people and not been chastized because it sounds like traditional Jewish Midrash.

Grace and Peace be with you,
Ken

[veggirl]

Ken,

Whats anti semitic ignorance?

The Complete Jewish Bible is good, but I found it kind of like the NIV.
What do you think about the American Standard Version?

[alon]

Jun 30, 2009 11:51:03 GMT -8 Sanil said:

A common criticism of Messianic Jews that I have come across is that they are only concerned with converting Jews to Christianity.

Well, that's one I have not personally come across ...

Some, especially Jewish believers, have a calling to the Jewish people. I have a heart for them, and donate regularly to Jewish missions as well as Jewish run relief. But, unless HaShem leads one to me (like my wife- but that kind of scares me!), I really do not feel called to seek out and convert Jews.

For some reason that I cannot fathom, He has seen fit to make of me a light to the stubbornest bunch of gentiles in the entire state of Washington! But I don't actively try to "proselytize" them. I just let my actions and words be a witness, and if they have questions or are interested I'll tell 'em what I know. But the fact is, as far as "Christians" are concerned, they either see that something is wrong or they don't; and when they do see it and the Ruach calls them to separate themselves from the idolatry and paganism, they either will or they will not. Hopefully they will seek me out instead of some of the craziness that has infested the area flying the Messianic flag!

to report, but there are quite a few who have seen the truth but turned back from it! It's not uncommon for them to suddenly see that I am removing their excuse before God (like they ever had one) and get angry with me. Others have come close, but backed away and are very careful when engaging in conversation with me. Most love Christmas and/or are just too happy to have the Law nailed to the tree instead of their sins. Obedience: ob-ed-ien-ce; a four letter word in mainstream Christianity ... unless of course only applied to those parts of scripture you like or can misinterpret to your own lustful purposes. Very ...

We should obviously always witness to the unsaved, be they Jew or gentile, whenever we get the chance. I am in no way the "Billy Graham" of Messianism- but in my own stumbling, bumbling way I do try to get the point across. It would be nice to have a synagogue close by to invite them to. I'm not all that comfortable inviting them to church, as the wolves gather whenever they think I am influencing anyone. Salvation is too important a topic to argue over in front of the unsaved, so I back away and hope for the best. My experience with mainC is that, by and large they have no such scruples.

One of the things I am thinking of doing is offering a Messianic study and see what happens. If no one comes for a while, that is OK as I can always use more study myself. But I'll have to pray some more about that and see.

Dan C

[azaliah]

One day my wife and I were in the mall to get her glasses fixed, as is our tradition she wears a head covering at all times, mainly because Sha'ul says in Corinthians 11:15 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven." KJV (now he goes on to say that is his preference and the Churches of Hashem have no tradition etc etc, but we like it, so it is part of our family "Mitzvot") and since we are always supposed to be in prayer (Jews aught always to pray, and commune with Hashem) then she always wears it, I too once always wore a Tallit under my shirt but above my undershirt (kinda like the Fiddler on the Roof, but no one could see it, so that I did not do this as a way of showing off, more importantly I would not want to Hashem, and at the time I did not always act as a Christian should) but I stopped that, about the time I stopped posting on this board because I did not feel connected to Messianic Judaism, mainly due to people who were trying to be more like the Jews who reject Christ and less like Christ, I was like...."I don't want to be mistaken for one of them" (not all were like this, I remember a guy here Rabbi Mark or something who was a wonderful man, I think we talked on the phone and I had great respect for him, not sure if he is around anymore) anyway, I gave my Tallit to a Southern Baptist Preacher who I shared Yada with, and promptly left the MJ scene, my spirituality paid a little for it too, so it was not so much a good thing.

Long story short, this little brown skinned woman, grabs my wife by the arm in the mall and asks us, "are you Jews?" (which was a shock to me, because I didn't know Jewish woman had a custom of a head covering, from what I understand Hassidic women wear wigs? How silly...). She was selling dead sea salts in a vendor there for 500% more than they were worth, and I wasn't going to pay a dime more than 20%, what? I am a Jew, some time the stereotypes are right, anyway she starts talking to me in Hebrew and I clumsily make my way through the conversation, and she is talking about how we were the only Jews she met for a long time in Oklahoma, and how amazing Yisrael was, and how she was in the IDF, then I was like...don't try to get us to buy this for that price....we aren't really Jews like she thinks, so you know she goes through the same rigaroll all the other Orthodox Jews go through with me (although she was probably reformed based upon how short her skirt was, not being Judmental but you would have needed a very liberal interpretation of Tzniut) like, was your mother Jewish...check, do you observe the ...check, Oh you believe in Yeshua....right, your right, you are not a Jew.

The price went up, I walked away, nothing to do with religious views but I am not going to buy something just because it's Israeli, make it cheaper ill happily pay for it. Anyway, my wife really wanted these useless dead sea salt creme stuff, so, I took my money, and gave her a small portion of it, like 30 bucks, and said here, this is a gift for you from our (very tightly monitored budget) money, spend it on whatever you like in the mall, so she goes back to the Jewish woman who accepts the price looking daggers at me, and saying, "your husband really is a Jew".

Why didn't I witness to her? I honestly don't know, I suppose in a sense I was witnessing because I did not deny my faith in the Mosiach, but I made no intentional effort to tell her about Yeshua. Did I discriminate against her? I hope not, even if she denies the Mosiach, isn't she still in some small sense my kin by the blood of Abraham? I suppose so, I suppose I see her as that but I also felt like I don't like it when Jews try to "guilt trip" me in to being Jewish (which has happened often in person) so I wasn't going to try and tell her that she should be Jewish like i am Jewish and accept the Mosiach, besides I was not able to speak with the Husband or boyfriend because he was speaking to other customers, and sometimes I feel woman are best to minister to woman and men to men. But I honestly admit, that....maybe I do not know how to witness to Jews? I witnessed to goy all my life, but the only Jews in my life I was ever close to were Messianic, they were already saved. I think this is something very important I need to work on.

[alon]

Not to stereotype the Jews, but after we select the car I always let my wife do the haggling.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Azaliah, I am not sure you should worry too much about what you should have done.

I personally only witness to people in a more assertive way if I feel compelled to do so. In general, I try to set an example of confidence in G-d in joy and peace for the sake of all of you and the G-d I love. When I am walking with Him that is so natural and easy, so when I am where I need to be, I don't have "to do" anything.  However, we know the ups and downs of being just human. I do what He compels me to do. Lately, the to do list has been more about working on me than working on others. If G-d puts it in my heart, I act on it.  I can act on it because I know it's from Him and it therefore flows easily.

I wouldn't worry about what you should have done. Perhaps she wasn't prepared for more spiritually. Perhaps your emotional state wasn't where it needed to be to witness to her anyway.  I wonder if He wasn't just showing each of you something about yourselves while planting seeds and a piece of a connection that will get more notice later.

I think the worse thing we can do is force the subject on people who are only in a place to get more practice tuning us out and support for the stereotypes. There is a reason you felt what you felt, and acting inauthentically very likely would have only created more divide. 

[alon]

Oct 3, 2015 7:10:32 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

... I think the worse thing we can do is force the subject on people who are only in a place to get more practice tuning us out and support for the stereotypes. There is a reason you felt what you felt, and acting inauthentically very likely would have only created more divide. 

Rav S teaches that we are not responsible to witness to those who don't want to hear. But if they do, we are responsible to tell them- usually up to Christmas, then we loose them.

There are a couple of threads around here on how to open a conversation and see if they are receptive to the message, whether that of salvation or of conversion to MJ. I'll see if I can find them.

elizabeth is correct, don't beat yourself up over the past; just learn from it. They may, as she said, just have been in need of someone planting a seed. Hashem also sometimes puts us in situations where He knows we'll fail because we need that teachable moment. There is a pastor here in town who loves to challenge me (though it's been a while ). He is experienced, having been on the mission field and pastoring several churches. He also has a masters degree. I never feel adequate witnessing to him, but so far I've answered all his questions and challenges. I almost always take the time (usually days) to research and print out a small book though, because I'm not good off the cuff anymore. He is a scholarly man, so he appreciated this. Point is, we deal with who God puts in front of us, and we do so in their language and the manner they understand and respect. And sometimes we learn more than they do from the experience, especially if they say no or cut you off. Or even if we just blow it!

Dan C

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3531/discussion-on-witnessing

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3533/witness-christian

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3532/witness-non-believer

[azaliah]

To Elizabeth,

You Hashem calls us to witness, as he says this in the general commission, but we have some ideas about blasphemy in my house. Some ideas are probably too rigid to apply to others but we apply it to ourselves. In general blasphemy is when you take some sacred, and abuse it or defile it in some way. Usually this applies to speech, when people cuss and such. But for us, it extends to things that you do that may blaspheme Hashem. For example, in our house to use any part of scripture in order to "win" an argument is a form of blasphemy. Now, if you are meaning to edify, or meaning to explain what the scripture says, and you use scripture in a way you feel is appropriate to the situation, then that is ok. But let's say for example my wife and I were having a discussion on where we should go to eat, and I said, "Well, the husband is the head of the house, and as such I decide where we eat, and I wan't to eat at Subway, The Bible gives me this right", well to us, this would be blasphemy (also, not exactly the intent of scripture) because I was only using the scriptures for a selfish purpose.

Another form of blasphemy might be to witness to someone in order to gain preeminence, like, "Hey guys I just witnessed to that Hebrew over there, you know I am a good MJ". The heart is intent of serving self, not serving Hashem. So if my heart is not right, then I will be careful about speaking to someone about Hashem, unless they ask me.

The last one is very iffy, for us you should not be going around giving out the gospel to people if you cannot control your tongue (James 3:10). Though it is important to wtiness to others, how can you Hashem in one sentence then hope to witness in the next, this is I hope not an excuse, but sometimes I did not witness a lot because my testimony was so pure, and I am not entirely sure this is valid.

I know, that by nature I am a villain, but I am changing my representation to the world and to my family, so that people will not look at my life and say my witness is blasphemous.

Your words are very wise Elizabeth, on my weekend Sabbatical I considered them, I hope Hashem blesses you.

to Alon,

When it comes to apologetics for me, I have never witnessed to a Jew. I mostly witness (on accident) to athiests, everyone seems to be an athiest this day. The most common athiest is the ex-Christian. I explain all the time to them a principle there is no such thing I am aware of as an ex-christian. In the event that its possible for someone to be removed from being saved, whatever allowed a person to meet this assumption about themselves, brings doubt that such a redemption, for them ever occurred in the first place. Just what does it really take, for Hashem to give up on you?

[alon]

Oct 5, 2015 13:56:49 GMT -8 azaliah said:

... The most common athiest is the ex-Christian. I explain all the time to them a principle there is no such thing I am aware of as an ex-christian. In the event that its possible for someone to be removed from being saved, whatever allowed a person to meet this assumption about themselves, brings doubt that such a redemption, for them ever occurred in the first place. Just what does it really take, for Hashem to give up on you?

I was raised Baptist, and so eternal security was hammered into me. I no longer believe that. I say this not because I'm about to launch into a discussion on the topic but more so you know where I'm coming from. Years ago when I was still grappling with the issue another friend, a young Assemblies pastor, told me there is a big difference in our exercision of free will and walking away and God's giving up on us. As he put it, God has a lot of grace invested in us, an He will do whatever it takes to bring us back. I thought that a fair point whether you believe in eternal security or not.

God knows our hearts. He is the God of all possibilities. What does it take for Him to give up on us?

Deuteronomy 23:3-5 (ESV) “No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of them may enter the assembly of the Lord forever, because they did not meet you with bread and with water on the way, when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you. But the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam; instead the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loved you."

We can, as a nation or as a person anger the Lord so much He will give up on us. When we oppose His people and conspire with demons to come against them and to thwart His will, He will not only give up on us but will keep us from His assembly. Is there then no hope for us? Well, Ruth was a Moabitess, and she was in the lineage of Yeshua. But that is one in how many? Even her two sisters-in-law, who had lived with the Hebrew faith turned back, and only she went on.

I do not know all the answers on this issue. At what point are we no longer saved (assuming this to be the case)? At what point does God give up on us? All I do know is in the time of my rebellion there is no way I was still saved. And if once done there is no hope, then I could not now be saved. At what point does a Christian hear enough they are responsible for the Messianic message; and what implications does this have for their salvation? I simply leave these questions to Hashem and witness to whoever He puts in front of me.

Dan C

Correction: Ruth only had one SIL. Thanks, jimmie.

[azaliah]

I never heard of the Ammonite/ Moabite thing, which could theoretically be counter argued that when you accept Yeshua, you effectively have a change in nationality (though I am sure to some thats heresy, I am simply arguing a possible answer not on what I believe, what I believe is simple, if you accept Yeshua as your A______ and Mosiach, Ben Hashem, you will be saved. ratio fini)

However, when it comes to eternal security, I don't know everything. I know what makes you saved, I don't know what makes you un-saved. People like to use, Hashem never goes back on His promise, not to ever say that He does but...Hashem said that many times He would "divorce" Yisrael. (Jeremiah 3:8). So....I mean who knows really?

Here is what I say, (Hebrew 4:1-3) "Let us therefore fear...", When you accept Christ, you should be accepting Christ with the mentality it is a permanent joint operation, not casually accepting a Christmas gift. If at any point you think there is a problem with your walk with Hashem, go to "The Doctor" and get it checked out. If you thought you have have been exposed to AID's, would you just "have faith that you are ok" or would you go and see that you are ok.

Faith in your salvation is great, but when there becomes a doubt where is the harm in going to The Master, bowing you heart and asking Hashem, where you stand with him?

[jimmie]

Oct 5, 2015 14:55:17 GMT -8 alon said:

[ Ruth was a Moabitess, and she was in the lineage of Yeshua. But that is one in how many? Even her two sisters-in-law, who had lived with the Hebrew faith turned back, and only she went on.
Dan C

I am pretty sure Ruth only had one sister in law.

azaliah,

I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I do not believe in the eternal security of the unbeliever. We are told many times to endure to the end. If one fails to endure to the end or falls away, he did not act as a believer.

Jimmie