Two-House understanding of Messianic Judaism

[Mark]

The faith conviction of Messianic Judaism is not as clearly spelled out as many might initially believe or or understand. There are many factions of variant understandings in the body of Messiah. This isn't bad... in fact, it's Jewish! It has often been said that if you have two Jews together, you have three opinions.

I'd like to address some of the better known factions, particularly those who have decided it necessary to claim a title or name which distinguishes them within the Messianic realm.

In this thread, I would like to discuss the "Two-House" movement led by Eddie Chumney and Monte Judah. I'd rather not open with defining "Two House" because I am not of that conviction and I don't want to open with a negative perspective. If someone is "two-house" and would like to share why you believe accordingly, I would love to gain an understanding. I promise that I'm not looking for an opportunity to blast you out of the water theologically; though I would like to discuss the issues that distinguish us.

PS I loev spel chik

[Chizuk Emunah]

I think it would help if the term Two-House were defined.
As far as I know this belief is merely defined as those who believe that there are two houses of Israel, Ephraim and Judah. I also know that in the Acharit HaYamim that those two houses will be re-united. Aside from that, I know that Eddie Chumney teaches that is for all believers.

[Mercedes]

Shalom, I enjoy this subject!

Understanding the ten tribes is to understand the message of ALL the prophets. All they did was speak about the the two house's.
AMOS, HOSEA, ISAIAH AND MICAH spoke warning both the House of Judah and The House of Israel of their impending falls first of the House of Israel to fall.

EZEKIAL speaks of the House of Israel 128 years after their fall.
JEREMIAH speaks of the House of Israel 94 years since their fall
Zechariah speaks of HOI 206 years after fall
ZEPHANIA speaks 82 years since HOI fell
HAGGAI speaks 206 years since HOI fell

finally The House of Judah was so sick of the prophets calling for the House of Israel's re-gathering they said to Ezekial speaking 128 since the HOI fell, EZ11:13 "Son of man your brothers and the and all the house of Israel that have heard the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying to all of them, Go far away from YHVH, This land is given to us for an inheritance. Because of this, so says the Lord YHVH, Though I scattered you among the nations :17 I shall gather you from the Peoples in where you were scatttered.

This is the House of Judah's current position as today.
So now when Paul speaks of the two Houses in Hebrews 8:8 "Behold the days are coming when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.."
He understood quite clearly what the Lord meant when he said in Matt 15:24 "I was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
The prophets, apostles and Yeshua himself understood the difference of the two terms and houses.

The promise of the holy spirit in Hosea is promised only to the House of Israel. Not in favoritism for one son over another but to a Father's promise who sent away both sons, gathered Judah first and kept his promise to gather also Ephraim his firstborn son.

Romans 9:25 "I will call them my people which were not a people...and in the very place they were called not a people they will be called the children of the Living God."

Who was called not a people? at what place?
He was quoting Hosea who says it is in Jezreel, Ho 2:2 "I shall break he bow of Israel in Jezreel" this is the very place where the house of Israel fell and they lost their name and title. Is 7:8 "Ephraim will cease to be a people"
Can gentiles be the "not a people?" scripture does not record Greeks, Romans or Germans being at the valley of Jezreel but only the House of Israel.
Therefore if you are called by God you are of the dipersion of Ephraim among the Gentiles and this is why Paul calls this the "Mystery of the Gentiles."
Blessings, Mercedes

[Mark]

HI Mercedes,

I'm confused with a couple of statements that you made. I'll ask them one at a time. Is Ephriam considered a "firstborn"?

I'm not trying to pick this apart. I'm just a little confused because you seem to maybe go two different directions. This is probably because my understanding to the "Two-House" doctrines, ad admittedly, my familiarity with the Prophets, is quite limited.

[Chizuk Emunah]

I would say I have to disagree with Mercedes' statement.
Ephraim was not the firstborn being spoken of.
Ya'akov (Yisrael) is the first-born son of Yitzak by inheritance of birth-right. He was the father of 12 sons, Y'hudah, Reuven, Gad, Asher, Naftali, Dan, Zevulon, Yissachar, Shimon, Levi, Yosef, and Benyamin. From Yosef came Ephraim and Menashe, and out of those two, Menashe was the first-born.

Now, was the nation of Yisrael dispersed into the goyim? Absolutely! Did they retain their identity as members of beit Yisrael? Some did, while most did not. Evidence of people retaining Hebrew customs has been found in Burma, Africa, China, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

Keep in mind though, that HaShem divorced himself from Yisrael due to their idolatry, and their only way to share in the promises is to re-unite themselves with Y'hudah.

[Mercedes]

Shalom Natzari,

Ephraim was not the firstborn being spoken of.

Then you disagree with scripture, Jer 31:9 "For I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn"

Mercedes

[Mark]

And Yos?ph took them both, Ephrayim with his right hand toward Yisra’?l’s left hand, and Menashsheh with his left hand toward Yisra’?l’s right hand, and brought them near him. And Yisra’?l stretched out his right hand and laid it on Ephrayim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand on Menashsheh’s head, consciously directing his hands, for Menashsheh was the first-born. And he blessed Yos?ph, and said, “The Elohim before whom my fathers Ab?raham and Yitsh?aq walked, the Elohim who has fed me all my life long to this day, the Messenger who has redeemed me from all evil – bless the youths! And let my name be called upon them, and the name of my fathers Ab?raham and Yitsh?aq. And let them increase to a multitude in the midst of the earth.” And when Yos?ph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephrayim, it was evil in his eyes; and he took hold of his father’s hand to remove it from the head of Ephrayim to the head of Menashsheh. And Yos?ph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the first-born, put your right hand on his head.” But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also becomes a people, and he also is great. And yet, his younger brother is greater than he, and his seed is to become the completeness of the nations.” And he blessed them on that day, saying, “In you Yisra’?l shall bless, saying, ‘Elohim make you as Ephrayim and as Menashsheh!’ ” Thus he put Ephrayim before Menashsheh.
(Gen 48:13-20 The Scriptures '98)


Yet, my understanding of Jeremiah 31:9 is not that Ephraim is elevated to the position of "firstborn" of Israel- (there are still nine sons he would have to go ahead of because he was, in fact, tenth out of the twelve), rather, that the restoration of Israel would be so complete, that it would be as though even the youngest would have the position as firstborn. Contextually, all of Israel is restored completely. To suddenly displace all of the older brothers is a surprising unjustifiable twist, isn't it?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Then you disagree with scripture, Jer 31:9 "For I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn"

We see that this particular verse is surrounded by much significant context pointing to the bringing back of the Diaspora. We cannot ignore this context when trying to understand what is meant by the Hebrew word that is used here which is the word; "bekhor". Yes, this word can be translated "firstborn", but it can also be understood in the light of someone whom is a chief person, or someone whom has experienced something first as we see Messiah is described as "the firstborn from the dead" in Col. 1:18 and "the firstborn of the dead" in Rev. 1:5. It is clear that Ephraim is not the actual firstborn in the sense of being born from a mother. So, perhaps we need to look at Ephraim's firstborn status in a different light.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Mercedes]

Shalom Reuel,


Exactly!

[Mark]

My second question is are you saying that the gentiles have replaced Ephraim but not replaced Judah? Or are you saying that there is no salvation for gentiles at all, only Jews that are of Ephraim dispersed among the gentiles?

[Mercedes]

Shalom Mark,

Many good questions. The first is to whom did the father send Yeshua to and where then did he send his apostles?

Matt 15:24 I was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel
Matt 10:5 "do not go in the way (manner & customs) of the gentiles but go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

Amos9:9 "Behold I will sift the House of Israel among the Gentiles as one shakes with a sieve"



Who received the renewed covenant?
Heb8:10 "Because this is the covenant which I will covenant with the House of Israel after those days,
giving my laws into their mind and I will write them on their hearts"
Was not this law written on your heart? then you are of this house.
Who were the apostles writing to?
James1:1 "James, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua christo, to the twelve tribes in the dispersion."

Now the beauty of this all is that who was sent to gather the House of Israel? It was the House of Judah sent to gather his brother


Blessings, Mercedes

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I can see that this thread will quickly diverge into a theological debate instead of an informational thread on "Two House Theology". So, I prepose setting up a seperate thread to do so. In this current thread let us try to simply present the various beliefs of "Two House Theology" as an informational thread only and we can debate in another thread whether it is actually theologically sound, or not. I will start a new thread called, "Two House Theology, True or False?".

It is interesting to note that those whom categorize themselves as "Two House" many times translate the term "goyim" to mean the dispersed of Yisrael and not actually the Gentiles of the nations. By doing this they believe when the term "Gentile" or "Gentiles" is being used in many places in the Brit Chadashah (New. Test.), it is actually speaking of the Diaspora and not Gentiles (as most people understand the term).

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Rick]

I have not looked into the "Two house" concept. I have heard of it a few times but that is the extent of my exposure to it. I always thought that being "a wild branch" and "Grafted into" the "root", that made one, (spiritually speaking), a member of the 'house' of Y'hudah. In my ignorance I had not given much thought to the dispersed tribes.
So if I understand correctly, the "Two house" movement believes all outside of Y'hudah to literally be members of the dispersed tribes of Yisrael? or spiritual members that are "grafted" in?

Rick

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Depends on whom you talk to, but this seems to be the majority opinion. Many of them believe because they have an attraction to and their Jewish roots that they must be from one of the dispersed tribes...But, they do seem to lump all people whom are known as "Jews" into the category of "Judah" even though all the people known as Jews today are from all the various tribes.

Shalom,

Reuel

[messimom]

Post moved to Eschatology: Two house theology true or false?

Thanks
Messimom