Messianic Jews/Hebrew Christians????

[verrid]

What exactly are the belief differences between messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians??I thought these two things were the same.
I came across some pretty strange references about Christianity here on the forum.
I thought Messianic Jews were another denomination of protestantism or something?
Is there something I am missing here?

[Chizuk Emunah]

I used to think there was a difference between the two, but there isn't. A Messianic Jew and a Hebrew Christian are esentially the same thing.
The mainstream Messianic movement derives most of its theology from Christianity, and also receives a large portion of its funding from Christian organizations.
For example: The UMJC just put out a positional paper that re-enforces 'One Faith, Two Expression Theology.' This theology teaches that there are separate standards for Jews and Gentiles. Believing Jews have to follow , wheras believing Gentiles don't.
This flies in direct contradiction to the TaNaK, where it says in Shemot (Ex.) 12:49 "One shall be to him that is native-born, and to the stranger that lives among you."

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I would say through my research of all those whom claim to be Messianic Judaism I have found that there are different sects that are indeed Observant and believe that are for all those whom have joined themselves to Israel (in regards to the path of sanctification). So, I wouldn't necessarily say that Christianity and Messianic Judaism is the same or that it is a branch of Pentecostal movement. In fact, many sects of Messianic Judaism go to great lengths to communicate that they are not to be categorized in this manner. I would say that "Hebrew Christians" are very different from many in Messianic Judaism.

I would say that "Jews For Jesus" are more like "Hebrew Christians" as they are not Observant and are indeed a sect of Pentecostalism. There are very many sects which need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. When it comes down to for both Jew and Gentile in Yeshua The Messiah, I would say that " Based Faith In Messiah" is the accurate way to describe what this forum and many other movements stand for. It can also be described as Observant Messianic Judaism.

And, if any particular movement upholds the than they cannot disregard the following three passages found in (Exo. 12:49, Num. 15:15-16, Lev. 24:22). These passages deal with any person whom join themselves to Israel. These individuals do not need to live in the land of Israel as the Diaspora is also held to the same . It is a path of sanctification and is not a prerequisite to salvation.

I hope this helps,

Shalom b'Yeshua,

Reuel

[Mark]

I have a very dear friend who has painfully come to the acknowledgment that is for all of us. Yet, he really, really struggles with the term "Judaism". "Why does it have to be called 'Messianic Judaism'?" he asks. I responded, "I didn't name it. This is just where I have come to belong."

He struggles with a need to maintain his non-Jewish identity. Can one become observant without adopting a Jewish perspective on life? For many of us the question seems to be rhetorical. Yet, it certainly isn't for him. I'm wondering if someone here may be empathizing with the way this believer feels and can help me to understand.

Oral and tradition are not to be held on par with the written Word. Yet, at the same time, th Passover Seder is not in , nor the descriptions of the Sukkot, nor the midrash of Rash Hashanah. Many things we are commanded to do in are not explained how in . If I were to allow myself to be annoyed at Adonai, it would be for this reason. He shakes His head at me as any father would at a rebellious child who thinks he is smarter than his Dad. Someday I may understand. Maybe the reason is to cause us (the gentiles) to cling to His people. Otherwise we would have all we needed to worship Him without them.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Maybe the reason is to cause us (the gentiles) to cling to His people. Otherwise we would have all we needed to worship Him without them.

I think you just answered your own question.

If someone doesn't like doing something because it is "Jewish," maybe that person needs to examine their underlying reasons for doing so.

Remember that it was a nice Jewish boy from Israel who said, "Salvation comes from the Jews."

[Rick]

Can one become observant without adopting a Jewish perspective on life? For many of us the question seems to be rhetorical. Yet, it certainly isn't for him. I'm wondering if someone here may be empathizing with the way this believer feels and can help me to understand.

I think Mark, I may know what your friend is actually struggling with.
In my own journey, when I began to question what I had been taught by "The Church"; and began to research and ask questions. I found that my questions were met with 'questioning' by friends, family, clergy, and teachers; not answers.

When I found answers to many questions on my own, I felt
like a fool. I was embarrassed. I could see how "the masses" could be duped, but to realize I was among them cut deeply.

It's like when the light comes on and you find yourself standing naked before a crowd. I felt betrayed, hurt, angry,(at the "Church", but more with myself). I felt like I had only been told half of the story. Like reading a "Readers Digest" condensed book, and then reading a first edition; you realize just how much information was left out.

Your friend may be in that 'place' between, now that he knows the truth, he cannot go back; but he is unsure about going forward.
Seeing my whole belief system in the glaring light of Truth and beginning to understand "the rest of the story", was a humbling experience. I regularly see things in my study that strengthens
my belief in being observant, while at the same time tearing down another piece of my 'indoctrination'. As time goes on and as I continue to grow, the feelings of bitterness, self doubt, and betrayal wane.

Your friend, in time, will come to the point that he will no longer want to cling to his former "identity". He will soon realize that in order to see All that G-d intended, he will begin to embrace the "Jewish" foundation of the "Way"; which leads me back to the subject of this thread. I think that the "Way" is on a razors edge between Judaism and Christianity; embracing , Messiah Yeshua, and the "New Testament", while shedding "doctrine", and "enactments of Men" from both sides. "Sola Scriptura".

"God gave the to Israel, but all nations are to benefit by it."
(midrash)

Rick

[Mark]

Thanks, Rick,

I think this is what I was looking for. I had lost confidence in the teaching of the Church long before I left it. Quite honestly, I didn't know what Messianic Judaism was until about two years ago, yet, I've been teaching and debating it for at least a decade.

It can be very frustrating when a fellow sits across from you and says, "You're right. I can see it; but..." This fellow is currently in the process of writing a Church constitution and by-laws for the Christian Fellowship I had attended for fourteen years. He's in a pretty strange perdicament- balancing what he has found and acknowledged to be the truth with what this congregation is willing to accept. For me the answer is easy, and came to me prophetically from an old Paul Simon song that I couldn't get out of my head.
"You don't need to discuss much. Just get on the bus, Gus. And get yourself free." (No foolin, that's how it happened.)

I discuss my faith and the differences with mainstream Christianity to different folks, on an average, about two or three hours per week. Most people spend the time wondering how I fold my toga and if there is a swastica tattooed somewhere on my body. (You know the glazed over "When I stand up, where does my lap go?" sort of stuff) Our faith is radical to them, frighteningly so. For them, their faith is a trademark of identification, a code, a moral sub-system of cultural government, a hobby. For me it is life and breath and peace and understanding. They typically don't see the difference between the two because they've never been where I am. Yet I see it because I spent years where they are... thinking I've got it but wondering if "it" was really it.

I want to re-iterate (for myself and for other readers- not for you , Rick, because you clearly understand better than I) that Messianic Judaism isn't they hidden key to inner peace. There is much of the same hypocricy and self-relaince in the community as there is in the Church. We are not in this community because it is what makes us right. We are committed to following Yeshua and this is the way that He walked.

I'm sorry for the monologue- the diatribe. Truth is, I should be praying right now. Not ranting.

Mark

[Rick]

(You know the glazed over "When I stand up, where does my lap go?" sort of stuff)

[Ashirah]

One person wrote "Can one become observant without adopting a Jewish perspective on life?:

I personally don't think so. I'm not even sure it's available or possible to stand in one place and move on to another.

Everyone I know in our area who fellowship together now were called out of different denominational churches. Everyone of us, without exception, quit doing the church/world holidays and gravitated toward celebrating Shabbat and the festivals.

When we first started meeting in the home we had no idea where we would be led - NO IDEA. We just knew we couldn't and wouldn't stay where we were.

When one is called out they are really called out from the ways of the world. I do think it takes some people longer than others to transition and for those things of the world to fall away and to be put away.

For some of us in the group our families had a big problem with us not partaking of Christmas anymore because it is very important to THEM and they didn't understand why it was no longer possible for us to do it.

Everyone I know quit celebrating Christmas and there were many discussions as to how to handle it lovingly with our families. Eventually all of our families just came to accept it's where we were at spiritually.

And although they didn't agree with us most of them did honor and respect our right to love and worship as we wanted too. And some families mocked and made fun of us but there wasn't anything they could do to pull us back into it.

I sat all my grandchildren down and explained it to them so they would know why they weren't getting presents from us anymore. They took it really well. They had less trouble with it than the adults did. And when they come to visit they partake in the festivals with us and absolutely love them.

So, no, I don't think a person can have one foot in one world and the other foot in the other world. We are not called in part - but to love, be and do with everything in us.

We in our group still talk about how we were all called from different churches and ended up together. Those stories are truly miracle stories.

My husband and I were sitting behind a couple in a class we were attending and overheard them talking about a couple in the area we live in who left there church and started meeting in the home and studying Hebrew.

We of course turned around and asked them for the name and phone #. It turned out that this couple knew the couple in our area several years ago, had lost track of them and had just bumped into them the week before. That's how we connected with the first couple in our town - amazing.

If G-d wants a person somewhere that person WILL arrive sooner or later. I figure if He is big enough to create the heavens and the earth He can move a person where He wants them.

Life is surely alive and exciting. Shalom.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Thank you for sharing that sister...I love hearing stories like that

Todah rabah achoit,

Reuel

[yiska]

If G-d wants a person somewhere that person WILL arrive sooner or later. I figure if He is big enough to create the heavens and the earth He can move a person where He wants them.

Exactly... this is what happen to me, G-d knew when, how and where I was suppose to be...
Amazing!!!

I will have share my story of how I became a Messianic Jew. ;D

[danstevens]

Ashira wrote: "One person wrote "Can one become observant without adopting a Jewish perspective on life?:

I personally don't think so. I'm not even sure it's available or possible to stand in one place and move on to another."

I personally can't think of how one can become observant with a jewish perspectitive.

Either Paul and yes I call him Paul, Saul set out about to destroy the brethren Paul was an apostile to the brethren, and Yeshua are both wrong or its okay to accept man made traditions and customs and wifes tales and fables and myths into your worship of God

However itself says not to

Deut 4:1 “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

29 “When the Lord your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?’ 31 You shall not behave thus toward the Lord your God, for every abominable act which the Lord hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

We are to be followers of the way, Yeshua is the way, Yeshua is the word of God, The word of God is not open to intepretation or additions or subtractions by anyone. Not even those who self proclaim themselves to be follower of him.

Did not Yeshua say of the predecessors of the Jewish Rabbis.

Matthew 15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”

and

Matt 5:14 Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

and

Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Now either Yeshua is your Teacher your master and your king or the Jewish rabbi's are? Both can't be right. Its your choice.

[alon]

Apr 30, 2013 13:13:41 GMT -8 danstevens said:

... I personally can't think of how one can become observant with a jewish perspectitive. ...
Now either Yeshua is your Teacher your master and your king or the Jewish rabbi's are? Both can't be right. Its your choice.

Of course they can! There are many places where the rabbis and Yeshua did not disagree- Shabbat, for example. And since Judaism and Christianity are both Hebraic, I'd say you can't really become observant or saved without that onerous anti-Constantinian-anti-Greek-anti-Roman Jewish perspective. So I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here ...

You don't have to be observant as a condition of salvation, but you are accepting a observant, very Jewish Messiah when you are!

Dan C

[messianicmama]

San- you sound pretty anti-semitic, man. Not sure what your beef is with Jews and judaism, but maybe you're on the wrong forum. I'm feeling really weirded out and that I have to read such hateful stuff on this wonderful forum.

[leviisrael]

I think it is appropriate to respond to this one. The fellowship that I lead, Kingdom Star Ministries, used be a Messianic Jewish fellowship, and recently changed to a Hebraic Christian fellowship. Though the differences are not huge I do see a difference. Part of it is in approach. By definition a Messianic Jew is a Jewish person who believes in Yeshua as the Messiah. I am not a Jew, and most of the people who come to my fellowship are not Jews, but we do Believe in Yeshua, which makes us Christians. We are no longer Gentiles as this is equivalent to being a pagan in the early church. Though I am not a Gentile, I don't feel comfortable calling myself a Jew when I don't have that actual blood or cultural heritage. So I am a Christian that worships with a Hebraic understanding of Scripture, which includes honoring. Since I am approaching from the standpoint of being a Believer in Yeshua, it seems more appropriate to consider myself a Hebraic Christian. I think there are more theological differences too, but some things are best kept to myself.