Oral Torah

[The 614th Mitzvot]

What's the deal with Oral , and what are your opinions on it? I think Oral is good and forms a fence around . I will not chastize those who do not practice Oral , for I also realize it is not as significant as written .
What I believe is that Yohshuah HaMoshiach did not wish to abandon Oral , but rather make it more personal rather than a book we have to read as though it were some dreaded assignment. I think it is all of our duties to make a fence around , but in the way we deem fit. If some say Talmud, then I believe they are correct, and if some deem thier own ideas, that's fine too, just as long as thier is a fence built.

My next question is "What is your opinion on the writings of the 'Rabbis'?" For instance, would you consider Kabalah, Oral ; would you say Rashi formed Oral ? What are your opinions on these sages, should we listen to them and understand thier writings, pick and choose what out of what they said is right for us to read, or simply disregard them all together?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I think that the rabbinical writings found in Talmud are extremely helpful study tools, and can give great insight into our faith. As we read through the gospels we see that Yeshua HaMashiach agreed with many of the sentiments of the sages such as Hillel, and Shammai. But, we also see that He had serious disagreements as well. Because Yeshua disagreed with many of the sentiments passed on from The Pharisees to what we know as Rabbinical Judaism today, a believer in Yeshua cannot conclude that Talmud is 100% in accordance with our Heavenly Father's .

I think it is all of our duties to make a fence around , but in the way we deem fit. If some say Talmud, then I believe they are correct, and if some deem thier own ideas, that's fine too, just as long as thier is a fence built.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but where is your scriptural basis for the above statement. Could you please expound a bit more on this idea.

Shalom achi,

Reuel

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Did not Yohshuah HaMoshiach say that if I look at a woman in lust I have already commited promistuity; or if I covet, I have already stolen? This obviously points to building a fence. In the there are laws that are so general that it cannot be said different, but must exist with one's own conscience. For instance when Moshe Rabbenu says that one should not be a vulgar person. This is not simply pointing to doing something, but rather is a generalized statement. This law points to building a fence because all a fence is, is a marker between right and wrong, if the line is clear, such as tzitzit, then it needs no fence, however if the line is unclear, as in the said law, then we need to identify what it means, or go to Talmud.
Wow, much to ponder.
Please direct your response to my second question also.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Did not Yohshuah HaMoshiach say that if I look at a woman in lust I have already commited promistuity; or if I covet, I have already stolen? This obviously points to building a fence.

Well said. Although, what if these fences become built so high, and so far that it is impossible to experience the simchat, and purpose of the actual ?

This law points to building a fence because all a fence is, is a marker between right and wrong, if the line is clear

And, where is that line of building fences around crossed?

Shalom achi,

Reuel

[The 614th Mitzvot]

I don't think that it necesarily said in black and white, however I would think that it is obvious. I do not know any scripture that points directly to it.

[steve_613++]

Shalom.

My feeling about oral is this: I am from an evangelical background which instantly rejects any idea that the words of Scripture are somehow insufficient for our needs. But then I remember that God said to Moses,
``And see to it that you make them according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain'' Exodus 25:40.
So, where is this pattern, or image, or diagram, or plan, that God showed to Moses. This passage is about detailed guidance from God concerning the construction of real-world physical objects; an ark, with golden rings and carrying poles, a pure gold mercy seat, two cherubim, an acacia wood table overlaid with pure gold, with rings and poles; dishes, pans, ptchers and bowls, a lampstand with complex design features, lamps, wick-trimmers, trays etc.

God insisted that the construction of these objects be undertaken exactly as He designed them.

``According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it.''

Although many details are given for many of the objects, such as measurements and distances, which object goes where etc
the actual designs are not preserved in the Scriptural text, and yet Scripture confirms that non-verbal guidance was provided to Moses. The words we read in these chapters are the wordsGod spoke to Moses, but if the words alone were sufficient for him why would God also have shown Moses a plan?

So I am left with the question, ``If Moses was alone on the mountain when he was 'shown' the plans for the tabernacle by God, how did he transmit these ideas to the people who carried out the construction?'' My conclusion is that he must have

• Simply told everyone what to do without referring to the images in his mind, or
  
• Provided physical plans for the builders himself, re-creating them from the memory of the images shown to him by God, or
  
• Carried out the work himself without speaking to anyone about the plans.
  

But we know that Moses did not do all the work himself.

``... and I have put wisdom in the hearts of the gifted artisans, that they may make all that I have commanded you: the tabernacle of meeting, the ark of the Testimony and the mercy seat that is on it, and all the furniture of the tabernacle, the table and its utensils ...''etc (the list of objects continues). ``According to all that I have commanded you they shall do.''

No, Moses did not do the work. God selcted and appointed people by name and filled them with
``the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, in cutting jewels for seeting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship.''
But God did not show them the pattern on the mountain. He only showed Moses, who must, in turn, have told them or shown them what God's designs were.
This is a clear example of an extra-biblical source of knowledge which was orally transmitted. The irony is that Scripture itself attests to it. Of course, it's not an argument proving that everything the sages claim to know was actually passed down from Moses. But it is a point about which I frequently wonder. Did God show Moses other things? The patterns of tzitziyot, the design for tefillin?

Any comments?

Steve.

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Here is an easily remembered scripture; I know my mother says it to me every night before I go to bed and I thought about it while I was laying in the dark:
"Man shall not live by bread (scripture) alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth (oral) of G-d (scripture)."
Does not Yochanan say to begin his writings, that The Word was G-d and The Word was with G-d?
Is not scripture 'The Word'?

Therefore to say that the we should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of G-d is to say that there is more; there exists things that G-d means for only one, and things that everyone should hear and know.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Good points men! Certainly we need to test anything in the Talmud by the established scriptures while keeping in mind all of the warnings that Yeshua gave in regards to the teachings of the Rabbis, and Perushim (Pharisees)...

"Yeshua said to them, "Take heed and beware of the yeast of the Perushim and Tzedukim."
They reasoned among themselves, saying, "We brought no bread."
Yeshua, perceiving it, said, "Why do you reason among yourselves, you of little faith, 'because you have brought no bread?'
Don't you yet perceive, neither remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you took up?
Nor the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you took up?
How is it that you don't perceive that I didn't speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the yeast of the Perushim and Tzedukim."
Then they understood that he didn't tell them to beware of the yeast of bread, but of the teaching of the Perushim and Tzedukim."
Mat.16:6-12

Surely the teaching of the Perushim (Pharisees), and Tzedukim (Sadducees) are contained in the Talmud. I make this point to emphasize the very same caution that Yeshua gives above. In this regard...Yeshua is the Key, and the filter that allows us to wade through this great work of Rabbinical writings.

The excellent point was made that anything that comes from G-d's mouth is scripture, and we are to live by it. What that truly is...is to be determined. This is why I see a need for a Messianic Talmud (if you will), or established Messianic halakah. No doubt Adonai can transmit this to us again, and HalleluYah that Yeshua will come back and (all of it) will flow forth from Zion!

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[The 614th Mitzvot]

I think that a big is in order. I feel that messianic halacha should be established.

Look at what Yohshuah HaMoshiach says, to watch out for both of thier teachings, and yet they ar both two opposites, to polars. I believe that what he is saying is that neither of them are fully correct nor are they Moshe Rabbenu so don't listen to every word out of thier mouths as though it were scripture.
This is something that both Reformed Judaism and Hasidic Judaism completely agree on, Moshe Rabbenu was no greater than the our modern rabbis. For this reason do Hasidim say that the 'rebbe' may be greater than Moshe Rabbenu. I disagree, only men with the divine Moshiach spark can make statements that can be taken as literally as scripture. I have not seen a man who I believed possessed that spark ever make a statement like that enyway.
My idea is take both the ideas of the Ph'rushim and the Tz'dukim with a grain of salt when you study.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

This is something that both Reformed Judaism and Hasidic Judaism completely agree on, Moshe Rabbenu was no greater than the our modern rabbis. For this reason do Hasidim say that the 'rebbe' may be greater than Moshe Rabbenu. I disagree, only men with the divine Moshiach spark can make statements that can be taken as literally as scripture.

Amen achi,

There is no other man (besides Yeshua HaMashiach) on Earth that was more humble/obedient (Numbers 12:3), and spoke with, and/or communicated with G'd than Rav Moshe (Exodus 33:11). No one besides Yeshua had clearer revelation. For anyone to suggest otherwise is foolish.

Shalom v'ahava b'Yeshua HaMashiach,

Reuel

[azumah]

This is a great thread. I personally think oral is very beneficial to observing . I'm sure anyone who has ever celebrated Pesach can attest to this.

Unfortunately, though, I believe it is yet another tool the enemy uses to lead people from the truth. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Unfortunately, though, I believe it is yet another tool the enemy uses to lead people from the truth. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I do have a few thoughts. But first, what do you mean by it is "another tool the enemy uses to lead people from the truth"?

Shalom achi,

Reuel

[azumah]

I believe the enemy uses Many different tactics to lead people from the truth. Among them are Bible translations, dogmatic scientific theories that are portrayed as fact, moral relativism, secular humanism as an absolute, and oral .

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Azumah,

How do you think oral should play a role in our lives as believers in Yeshua HaMashiach?

Reuel

[azumah]

That's an excellent question. As with anything else, oral should be used to edify the body with always being the absolute standard.

The problem I've seen is that oral seems in some cases to lead to more oral . At the risk of sounding like a two bit psychologist, I've noticed people who have been faced with a dilemna regarding there personal life and that seem to create there own oral to justify breaking the . I've seen this with both believers and non-believers alike. I don't know, but I gather that they justify this because there is an oral that explains when and how some of the commandments should be applied.

Just an opinion.