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Post by azgdt5120 on Dec 16, 2009 18:02:57 GMT -8
So far comments about kids and young people have been discussed. What about single goy man/woman who has a recent walk in Adonai's commandments?
You don't expect grown people to be asking parental control. What about in the cases where the adult already lives by him/her self??
I tent to insight in scriptures such as "do not adultery with lust in your heart towards a woman"
Is there some other scripture passages I could study on to recieve more understanding on this matter? Thank you.
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Post by Mark on Dec 17, 2009 4:39:21 GMT -8
Paul's counsel is to avoid the question as much as possible in 1st Corinthians 7. He says that if you are unmarried, not to go out looking for a wife but remain unmarried if at all possible; however, if the right woman happens to come into your life; it is no sin to pursue that relationship. He makes clear in 1st Corinthians 7:40 that this is his judgment, meaning you're not going to find chapter and verse regarding this question in the Tanakh. However, remaining content with what you have and receiving the gifts and blessings from Adonai as He offers them is a powerful theme throughout the Old Testament as well.
As far as the process may be concerned, Paul describes to Timothy in 1st Timothy 5:2, "treat the older woman like Mom and the younger women as though they were your sister." If not able to contain this, emotionally, retain this principle in your conduct until such time that you and she are confident that marriage is the inevitable outcome (some would even suggest that one should keep this level of restraint until after the wedding.
An important principle is that the dating lifestyle promotes temporary and disposable relationships. The consistent pattern of walking in love is not to plan on rejecting five or six different people, breaking the relationship, and starting over again until you find the one that suits you best. In living this way, we all wind up with damaged goods- and these rejections affect all of us in our marriages over and over again for the rest of our lives.
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Post by azgdt5120 on Dec 17, 2009 13:39:06 GMT -8
Thank you again Mark for your inputs. I'm glad to announce that next saturday I will be officially becoming a member of a new sinagogue that was found close to where I live. It's an answer to my prayers and cry outs before HaShem.
I'm sure my spiritual leader and teacher will help me in all this matters.
Shalom brother.
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Post by rivkah on Oct 28, 2015 19:37:23 GMT -8
This is so relevant to me so I thought that I would give some input. My boyfriend and myself are currently in the stage in between him asking my father for permission to marry me, which he did receive the permission, and our official engagement which will take place in a couple of months. We certainly know that we will be married and are just now going through the formal steps in process to get there.
We are still working out our guidelines and rules to guard our purity and our relationship as we approach marriage. We definitely have mane mistakes and We have had to make adjustments.
One thing that I think is vitally important if not most important is open and honest communication with each other. Something as simple as saying "hey that's not OK" or "This is fine" is a very important in terms of boundaries that a couple my set.
I don't think there is a standard rule of thumb, other than refraining from sexual relations of course, that can be universally applied. I think it depends on the couple. For example a couple who intend to be married may feel OK with kissing but then another couple may not until the wedding day.
I do think that unless a couple is quite sure that they are heading towards marriage they should avoid prolonged physical contact with each other. However, if they know that G-d has led them and is leading them to marriage then it is up to that individual couple, with wise counselors of course, to decide what healthy boundaries are to protect the relationship and the purity of the future marriage.
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Post by Questor on Oct 28, 2015 21:54:26 GMT -8
For any two people, whether in their late teens to their forties, as they meet to find if they are sufficiently sympathetic to one another to consider a marriage between them, I can think of nothing more important than the ability to be alone with one another for sufficient time to do more than formally agree to a commitment made by the families for them. However, they need not be without observation, being carefully watched over by an older person who simply sits across the room, or watches out of a window out of hearing range.
However, if young people with no interpersonal social skills are thrown together to figure out the business on their own they will often have have trouble figuring out what even to talk about at their first meeting, so it might actually be a good idea for a third party with some relationship training to get the interaction going between the two who are considering a marriage...to start a three way conversation, discussing some basic ideas of what their marriage to each other might be like, and asking the two people who are deciding to agree to so important a connection to state what they would like or not like from their spouse while giving them examples of good ways people within their community work out their relationships. They might want to discuss what they like and don't like in each of their parents marital relationship, since that is all the two people might know about marriage.
Later, the same third person, should simply sit apart from the couple, and allow them to speak together, walk together, even go to shopping together, to a musical performance, or to a museum...something that can give the young couple an idea of what the other likes and doesn't like before they accept a planned marriage. They also should have enough time together to discover that they like one another as people before a betrothal is made.
Once betrothed, they should be able to see each other at regular times without being guarded from one another, but allowed to write to one another privately, and interact freely perhaps after shul, and at the houses of their friends, or families, where they can be together as a couple among other people, and to be able to go out to dinner or to a concert or lecture with mutual friends, allowing them a sense of being together as a couple, yet without the pressure of figuring out what they are to do or say.
Physical expression of affection should be limited to the different stages of the relationship, and the limits set before they meet, so that neither is wondering what is expected of them, and both should be sufficiently instructed in the physical details of an intimate marital relationship so that they are not floundering around in the dark, ashamed and embarressed over what is natural and good.
Ignorance, and lack of pertinent information about what happens when in a courtship, betrothal and marriage is nearly the worst thing you can put a young couple through.
The worst thing for a couple to go through is to see one another with no supervision, guidelines, or instruction whatsoever, and no idea of what is next in the relationship. It is called dating.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 29, 2015 5:17:49 GMT -8
This is so relevant to me so I thought that I would give some input. My boyfriend and myself are currently in the stage in between him asking my father for permission to marry me, which he did receive the permission, and our official engagement which will take place in a couple of months. We certainly know that we will be married and are just now going through the formal steps in process to get there. We are still working out our guidelines and rules to guard our purity and our relationship as we approach marriage. We definitely have mane mistakes and We have had to make adjustments. One thing that I think is vitally important if not most important is open and honest communication with each other. Something as simple as saying "hey that's not OK" or "This is fine" is a very important in terms of boundaries that a couple my set. I don't think there is a standard rule of thumb, other than refraining from sexual relations of course, that can be universally applied. I think it depends on the couple. For example a couple who intend to be married may feel OK with kissing but then another couple may not until the wedding day. I do think that unless a couple is quite sure that they are heading towards marriage they should avoid prolonged physical contact with each other. However, if they know that G-d has led them and is leading them to marriage then it is up to that individual couple, with wise counselors of course, to decide what healthy boundaries are to protect the relationship and the purity of the future marriage. I was very secular at one time in my life. The world gives us ideas about "levels" of romantic relationship. It is true there is engagement and betrothal. However, I personally wish that I would have had a much more strict distinction about man-woman relationships myself, so I will speak from my own experience. As a married woman now, to me, there is married and unmarried. If within the boundaries of marriage, you would not want your husband to hug or touch another woman, then I would suggest that same expectation for each other now. After all, you will depend on each other to control yourselves on this level for the rest of your lives. Why not show that same self-control to each other now? I think it could build faith for both of you to remember how well you handled yourselves as years go on and life presents its difficulties. So my personal suggestion is to frame the boundaries of your current relationship around what you feel is acceptable regarding opposite sex interactions for each other once you are married. This is based on nothing more than the strict distinction between married and unmarried that I wish I would have applied to myself. |
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Post by alon on Oct 29, 2015 7:32:08 GMT -8
I see some tendency to make "rules." Rules imply control, and control is an illusion; especially with teens. And what do you do when they leave home?
Teach what is Biblically right while they are young. Teach what you expect of them as they get older. But always teach principles.
Rules? Want to guess what the best way to get me TO do something when I was a kid? I was a PK; want to guess where I first got to third? You can't control kids with a lot of rules. I know there must be some absolutes, some rules. But if all you got is rules, breaking them becomes a game. However principles I could understand, internalize and work with. Teach principles and they become the child's own, which they are far less likely to violate.
Teaching principles is a necessary part of life. I've trained Emergency Medical Services personnel as an example. Many wanted a list of what to do if. I always made them tell me, then I told them to learn the principles. I couldn't teach what to do for everything that would happen in the field. I could give them a rudimentary understanding of how the body functions and then teach principles of dealing with dysfunction. Understand the principles and you have the answers. And if your children understand the principles, they'll know what to do the rest of their lives, not just while you are watching. And it will teach them how to deal with many things other than dating: it teaches how to deal with all life's problems, because they will know to look for the principles.
Our God gave us a  - instructions on how to live. The idea we had laws is Christian, and notice how they found a way to get away from those pesky laws real quick!
Principles: one of the biggest gifts you can give your children.
Dan (rebellious child) C
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 29, 2015 8:57:30 GMT -8
I see some tendency to make "rules." Rules imply control, and control is an illusion; especially with teens. And what do you do when they leave home?
Teach what is Biblically right while they are young. Teach what you expect of them as they get older. But always teach principles.
Rules? Want to guess what the best way to get me TO do something when I was a kid? I was a PK; want to guess where I first got to third? You can't control kids with a lot of rules. I know there must be some absolutes, some rules. But if all you got is rules, breaking them becomes a game. However principles I could understand, internalize and work with. Teach principles and they become the child's own, which they are far less likely to violate.
Teaching principles is a necessary part of life. I've trained Emergency Medical Services personnel as an example. Many wanted a list of what to do if. I always made them tell me, then I told them to learn the principles. I couldn't teach what to do for everything that would happen in the field. I could give them a rudimentary understanding of how the body functions and then teach principles of dealing with dysfunction. Understand the principles and you have the answers. And if your children understand the principles, they'll know what to do the rest of their lives, not just while you are watching. And it will teach them how to deal with many things other than dating: it teaches how to deal with all life's problems, because they will know to look for the principles.
Our God gave us a - instructions on how to live. The idea we had laws is Christian, and notice how they found a way to get away from those pesky laws real quick!
Principles: one of the biggest gifts you can give your children.
Dan (rebellious child) C
I kind of thought I was getting at a principle, but maybe I need to state it more explicitly. Rivkah seemed to be asking about setting physical boundaries so I did my best to apply the principle I wish I would have applied to myself. Specifically, if this man can't control himself now, how are you going to trust him to control himself when you are married? Therefore, how you want him to behave when you are his wife and not looking is how you want to see him behave now. Now, I don't think that is at all the case for Rivkah and her intended, but this is exactly what I would tell my own daughter. The grounds for that principle is individual worth, which I also think is the grounds for self-control. Self-control is most certainly not an illusion if we understand the inherent value of people starting with ourselves. So giving your kids a sense of worth and teaching them the worth of other people based on their personal worth I think is also a factor in this conversation. I understand it is more difficult for teens and it is a life long learning process. Our challenge is that we live in a society where you get a license at 16 and are expected to spend more time outside of your home than in it. Meanwhile, kids don't have the emotional and mental maturity to handle that level of responsibility. I don't know how to get around that except in having rules. I think, perhaps, the concept of rules is the issue. For example, we have rules about extracurricular activities for specifically the social reason stated above; kids not being home. There is a limit on how many nights our kids participate in sports, music, whatever. Meanwhile, at this age, I am right there with them. Now at some point, I will have to gradually find my way to the door. Don't push me though! I am making the most of the time they want me there.  Anyway, It's a rule we have, but in explaining to our children the reason for the rules, we hope we are teaching the principles behind them. We also try to enjoy the time we spend together at home. My goal is that they won't be out and about doing who knows what when the rest of the world is telling them that's normal. I am not a parent of teenagers, and I don't know how it will play out, but honestly we all have to live by rules in society. Some kids are more rebellious than others. My daughter is extremely independent. She has been know to tell us not to look when she is doing something we asked her to do because she is so rebellious she doesn't want to be seen cooperating. As you can probably guess, I have spent a lot of time discussing rules and boundaries with her. Meanwhile, this very character trait can become her strength in peer pressure situations so we do our best to work with her and give her some logic. Recently, she has begun suggesting her own rules and personal expectations that line up with our principles. Praise the L-rd! There is hope. Rules serve a purpose when they are applied in an encouraging and loving way. They should give kids a sense of worth and self-control that will hopefully lead to self-discipline. |
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Post by alon on Oct 29, 2015 9:17:37 GMT -8
I kind of thought I was getting at a principle, but maybe I need to state it more explicitly. [/quote] I wasn't getting at you particularly; just stating a "principle" in regards to the human tendency to make rules to control others, which comes out more in some than others. Actually, you did pretty good. Some of the others are no longer posting, and some are a bit too verbose to quote. And in case you hadn't noticed, I sorta got a thing about rules. My one rule of life has always been "Rules are made to be broken." A common problem amongst Baptist PK's.
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
