|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 21, 2004 9:09:50 GMT -8
Should a young girl (and a daughter of a minister of G'd) be kissing a guy that she is not married to? Or, should her father approve such behaviour? Should she even be going out with a man in which she is romanticly involved without any supervison?
B'Shem Yeshua,
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 22, 2004 15:27:52 GMT -8
This is a tough discussion subject. I know I don't have any answers. I do have some discussion thoughts. It does occur to me that I would love to know if the Torah had any guidance on this.
My children are all grown now so there would be no chance to put this into practice. Unfortunately, I was not able to raise them because my wife left me when they were young. It would be very difficult to try to offer counsel if I were asked about this.
I have seen all kinds of different restrictions. I personally grew up in a quite restricted environment most of the time. Other times there were no restrictions at all. I do know that lack of consistency and the teaching of self control and dignity are badly lacking these days. The world also makes it so difficult with the ultra-permissive garbage that appears everywhere you look.
This is only beginning to scratch the topic. I am struck by a curiosity as to whether this question is essentially theoretical or acutely practical. Adults can clearly see a progression of actions that are a slippery slope that lead to serious trouble.
One point that is irrelevent is that her father is a minister of God. The expected behaviour is completely independent of such concerns.
The implication in the question is that a "date" can be unsupervised if the couple are not romantically involved. I have a difficult time agreeing with that idea.
I feel like there are just more questions. For example: You must set an expectation of limits for a child to be taught. How much does this limit change with age? How much does this limit change with progression of a relationship?
More discussion?
|
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 22, 2004 15:45:04 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 23, 2004 8:39:27 GMT -8
Hypothetical situations... Who can judge?
Lets say I choose to sit down with my grandson who is 14 or my granddaughter to talk about the birds and the bees. After considering this subject for a while I think I will.
The first thing is to talk about is clothing and exposure. A person should be clothed from the shoulder to the knee with no exposed skin. It is sometimes acceptable to expose the shoulder, the knee and the stomach. Men sometimes go without a shirt. Bathing suits are no exception.
You must never look at a person who is not properly clothed unless you are married to that person.
A person must never touch or allow themselves to be touched anywhere that is never exposed unless you are married to that person. A person must never be touched anywhere if they object.
A person should not be kissed or allow themselves to be kissed unless they know the other person very well. Extended kissing or hugging is not allowed unless you are planning to marry that person.
A boy and a girl are not allowed to be alone unless you are planning to marry that person.
Any plan to marry must be approved by the parents until at least the age of 20.
|
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 23, 2004 8:51:09 GMT -8
These are some good guidelines.  What do you think about arranging marriages? Just a thought. I'm not saying that this is what I will be doing, or teaching any time soon. Shalom achi, Reuel |
|
|
|
Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 23, 2004 9:04:39 GMT -8
I think arranged marriages are a social/cultural artifact with advantages and disadvantages depending on the motivation and wisdom of the parents. One could only wish that all parents would take that much interest and participation in their childrens lives.
|
|
|
|
Post by LovingNeighbor on Jun 26, 2004 1:56:45 GMT -8
SHalom all,
Well this is a good subject. I think that if you raise a child right they will not want these things and will have a standard of values, for girls to be modest and to always think of the Fathers law. the Father picks a groom for his children as he picked yahushuah for us and a Father teaches his son how to pick a wife. I think if you are talking biblically there isn't an age where they make a decision without their father. although many mairrages happened young int hose times, the father had to OK to give his authority up to the new husband. So hopefully a duaghter always wants that to go that way until she is married because just like the wife she is under her father's authority until he passes that on.
Shalom
|
|
|
|
Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 18, 2004 13:14:51 GMT -8
I believe that a boy and girl should be supervised always before marraige when they are together. They must be watched with the scruples of both parents. I believe neither man nor woman should expose anywhere from thier shoulders to thier knees, even when swimming. I beleive so because even lust is a sin not the physical contact, and even the most un-appealing man is appealing to some woman. (or perhaps another man)  A woman should never be touched in any affectionate way in public, this excludes kissing and hugging, but even hugging and kissing should be left for marraige. That is why the couple kisses when they are married; it was something they could not do before; at least in the old times. |
|
|
|
Post by el Gusano on Jul 18, 2004 15:09:13 GMT -8
This in itself is faulty reasoning, in that someone finds everything attractive: feet, ears, etc. You would have to remain covered from the top of your head to the tips of your toes, and then there's probably someone who is turned on my a burkha.
|
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 18, 2004 15:49:12 GMT -8
This may be oversimplifying things, but in many cases one only has to look at what the world is wearing to see what we should not be wearing (if that makes sense). We should strive to not cause our brother's, or sisters to stumble in regards to our clothing. Modesty is a lost virtue in much of the congregations today. It could not hurt to become more modest in our assemblies, but it has caused much damage for the scantely clad teens that have been running around these assembelies...and don't be fooled...teen sex is on the rise in these assemblies.
Although, the hearts of these individuals must first be changed before the outer appearance. In other words, we must focus on the heart of these individuals first before we focus on their outer appearance. Although, I would not select a man, or a woman to marry my sons, or my daughter that did not have the necessary heart condition that effects these outer conditions. I don't think that Chumash614 is saying that we should dress like muslims (being covered from head to toe). I do agree with Chumash614 in regards to the thought that most intimate touching should be reserved for marriage. Although, I don't know if I would include a simple hug in this definition of "intimate touch".
As a general rule I try not to touch a woman other than my wife. But, I do not reject hugs from friends of my wife either (in her presence). Although, sometimes I do have my reservations in regards to the fact that I don't know if they are in their time of niddah (which if one observes this...it is a good enough reason altogether to not touch a woman). This is also somewhat of an issue with me in regards to the Davidic/Israeli worship dance (which is with men, and women) that takes place at the congregation I attend, and many other Messianic congregations like it. One can take this issue way too far, but I think my concerns are valid. Paul writes something interesting in regards to this discussion...
"Now concerning the things whereof you wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman."
- 1Corinthians 7:1
Any other thoughts?
B'shem Yeshua HaMashiach (In the Name of Yeshua The Messiah),
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 18, 2004 16:38:30 GMT -8
el Gusano is completely correct; I simply never thought of it that way. After a few minutes of deliberation I have decided that a person should dress covered as they think is covered. One should dress conservatively as they deem conservative. Yet, it should also be deemed conservative by the average !CHRISTIAN! population; and I stress Christian!  |
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 18, 2004 17:47:09 GMT -8
Can you explain a little more what you mean by this. From what I have seen, a large majority of those whom call themselves "Christian" do not have conservative dress standards. Has anybody else experienced this to be true??
Shalom,
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 18, 2004 18:01:58 GMT -8
Like is said, I stress Christian as in really christian not some bored sabbath-sitter. (boy, I like that phrase.)
|
|
|
|
Post by el Gusano on Jul 18, 2004 18:29:55 GMT -8
I think you're on the right track there. I would suggest that in most situations, the standard swimsuit for men and the standard one-piece for women is quite sufficient. Most women don't lust because of a body (studies show most women are turned on by babies, but not in a molestation kind of way) of a man who is shirtless. However, if there's a woman there who is expressing lustful interest in you and perhaps has admired your body, then forego swimming.
As a man, I will admit that women in one-piece suits don't even turn my eye, just to look. Now, if she's doing somersaults on the high-dive, I'll most certainly look. However, see above.
There are always going to be those with a lustful eye, no matter the situation. If you are aware of a situation, you are not to cause your brother to stumble. However, I don't think that would be a problem in normal circumstance.
Now, there are swim suits that show a lot more than you should be showing to anyone other than your spouse. There are blue jeans that show too much. What one person considers common sense is immodest to the next person; what one person considers modest might make some drown from weight. If you're walking the walk the way you should, you know what's right and what's not; you have to feel comfortable with it and you're the one who has to answer for it.
|
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 18, 2004 18:52:42 GMT -8
Chumash614,
You stated...
Sorry, I am still confused. ;D
Shalom,
Reuel
|
|
A woman should never be touched in any affectionate way in public, this excludes kissing and hugging, but even hugging and kissing should be left for marraige. That is why the couple kisses when they are married; it was something they could not do before; at least in the old times.
from Sinai and transmitted it to Yoheshuah; Yoheshuah to the Shoftim; the Shoftim to the Nev'yim; and the Nev'yim transmitted it throughout Judea. It came BACK to Yohshuah HaMoshiach who retransmitted it to the rest of the world through Reb Sha'ul and Reb Cephas.
