Mikvah Baptism

[Mark]

Okay Guys,

I've frankly been baffled by this one so I really appreciate your insights. What is the significance of the mikvah bath to the believer? Is it a regular practice of ritual cleansing after having touched an uncleanness or is it symbolic of becoming a spiritual Jew (baptism of a proscelyte)?

Ephesians 4:5 tells us that there is only one baptism; but Paul, in Acts 19 distinguishes between the baptism of John and the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ (a baptism of repentance as opposed to a baptism of conviction toward faith?)

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I would say that there is only one baptism of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), but many other cleansings according to .

Shalom,

Ryanp

[Chizuk Emunah]

I would argue that just as Yochanan immersed those who did t'shuva, so also should we immerse in mikvah after doing t'shuva. I would also say that just as new converts to Rabbinic Judaism immerse in a mikvah, so also we should have a similiar process for converts to Judaism. As for immersion of the Ruach, I believe that process comes later...

Back to your original question Mark:
The significance of the mikvah to the Messianic believer is two-fold. One, it is a mitzvah that should be kept, if possible. And two, it should be incorporated into the conversion process of a proselyte, as it is symbolic of a new beginning.

[Rick]

Shalom, gentlemen. I thought I would put in my two 'mites',

I would argue that just as Yochanan immersed those who did t'shuva, so also should we immerse in mikvah after doing t'shuva.

I agree, Immersion is a mitzvah; Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is immersed will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Act 22:16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be immersed, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
Mat 28:19-20 Therefore go, and make talmidim of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amein.
Rav Sha'ul was baptized; Acts 9:18-HE RECEIVED SIGHT FORTHWITH, AND AROSE, AND WAS BAPTIZED.
I found 77 references to baptism/immersion in the Bible. Hmm, G-d must regard this as a fairly important topic. The Greek word for "baptize" is "baptizo" (bap-tid-zo) to submerge, i.e. "fully wet;" to be immersed, is the scriptural way. I don't think "sprinkling" quite qualifies.
Ro 6:4-THEREFORE WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: THAT LIKE AS MESSIAH WAS RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, EVEN SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
Col 2:12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, WHEREIN ALSO YE ARE RISEN WITH HIM THROUGH THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF G-D, WHO HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

The significance of the mikvah to the Messianic believer is two-fold. One, it is a mitzvah that should be kept, if possible. And two, it should be incorporated into the conversion process of a proselyte, as it is symbolic of a new beginning.

I agree that it is symbolic, and that it is also a literal mitzvah, but also of spiritual significance, ie; regeneration/rebirth, "new beginning".
Ro 6:3-6,8-KNOW YE NOT, THAT SO MANY OF US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO MESSIAH Yeshua WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? THEREFORE WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: THAT LIKE AS MESSIAH WAS RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, EVEN SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE (regeneration). FOR IF WE HAVE BEEN PLANTED TOGETHER IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, WE SHALL BE ALSO IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION. KNOWING THIS, THAT OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM (as Yeshua went into the tomb, we are immersed), THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DESTROYED....NOW IF WE BE DEAD WITH MESSIAH WE BELIEVE THAT WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM.

Ephesians 4:5 tells us that there is only one baptism; but Paul, in Acts 19 distinguishes between the baptism of John and the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ (a baptism of repentance as opposed to a baptism of conviction toward faith?)

I feel the immersion of Yochanan was like mikvah of cleansing in preparation for the coming baptism "UNTO LIFE", as Yochanan was to "MAKE STRAIGHT" the coming of Yeshua. There was a difference, we find that in Luk 7:29-30 And when all the people, including the tax collectors, heard this, they acknowledged G-d's way of righteousness, because they had been baptized with John's baptism. But since the Pharisees and experts in the law had not been baptized by him, they rejected the plan of G-d for themselves.
(I feel this was where the Pharisee's hearts began to "harden", even before Yeshua began his ministry. Did G-d begin "hardening" their hearts as he did Pharaoh to begin putting into place the series of events that led to the Crucifixion? but I'm getting off topic )

I would say that there is only one baptism of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), but many other cleansings according to .

As for immersion of the Ruach, I believe that process comes later...

I agree, I believe we receive Ruach HaKodesh AFTER immersion.
Mt 3:16,17-AND Yeshua, WHEN HE WAS BAPTIZED, WENT UP STRAIGHTWAY OUT OF THE WATER: AND, LO, THE HEAVENS WERE OPENED UNTO HIM, AND HE SAW THE SPIRIT OF ELOHIM DESCENDING LIKE A DOVE, AND LIGHTING UPON HIM: AND LO A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, SAYING, THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED.
Notice in this verse Yeshua is filled with the spirit AFTER he came up "out of the water". This order of events is also seen in this verse;
Acts 2:38. REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU…AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.
In 2 Ki:5, when Naaman the was told by the prophet Elisha to dip in the river seven times he would be healed; it was not the water that healed, it was his obedience to what G-d said to do. I feel it is the same with immersion. There is no power in the water or in the act alone, it is t'shuva/repentance followed by obedience,(immersion), that completes the mitzvah, In order to receive Ruach HaKodesh.
So it is my view that this is a mitzvah that MUST be kept; if you repent, and believe, be immersed.
Rom 6:9-11 knowing that Messiah, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him! For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to G-d. Thus also consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to G-d in Messiah Yeshua our Lord.

I hope I am not too far off
Shalom, Rick

[Mark]

So, Reuel, this means that you believe the baptism referred to in Ephesians 4:5 to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I'm not challenging the thought, I'd just never considered it before (Baptist... you know.)

That seems the only logical solution because there are two different physical/water baptisms described in Acts 19.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:1-5 KJV)


If the required baptism is the mikvah bath of : a ritual act of cleansing for uncleanness (I realize that it is much more than that; but I'm trying to keep the question concise), then why was the baptism of John not good enough? And if the baptism is the Talmudic ritual practice for becoming Jewish proselytes, why was it required of Jews in Acts 2:38?

There is unquestionably something about Baptism that goes far beyond our understanding. I directed a children's Christian Club for ten years with kindergarten through secong graders. If you are aware of evangelism statistics, that age group has the highest numbers of confessions for Christ. Yet, I've noticed a significant difference in the children who followed the Lord in baptism and those who have not. The ones who had been baptized, consistently had a confidence in their relationship with God, through Christ. THose who had not been baptized, were less comfortable. It was as though they were sure that they were saved; but they felt as though they held the Lord at arm's length, not confident that He truly wanted an intimate realtionship with them- they didn't question His power to save, nor the truth that they had entered into a relationship with Him; but they seemed to question if it were all a mistake that they were really supposed to be there (in God's kingdom) or not. There is unquestionably something supernatural that happens when we come under the waters of obedience.

The beautiful thing about this is that these kids have little or no real concept of what baptism really is. In fact, in the Church, there is no Judaic significance placed upon it. It is taught to be only a public testimony of the change that has already occured within, a ritual act of obedience just for the sake of obedience. Adonai seems to bless that, at least in my experience with these kids.

What you seem to be saying, Reuel, really makes the most sense: that there are more baptisms than one; but Paul is speaking specifically of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Such doctrine is taboo in my baptist upbringing (quite ironically). I have't got a secure handle on the more charismatic perspectives of the Bible. Any reading you may suggest that could bring me up to speed would be appreciated.

I remember being prayed over by this South American Missionary to receive the gift of tongues. He'd offered; and I've always believed, if it's something that God wants for me I'm all for it. Nothing happened. The guy who had been standing next to me fell to his knees and starting shouting syllables that I didn't recognize (at the time). The Missionary stopped and looked at me and shook his head. "You must be a Baptist. It never seems to work on Baptists." I've always held that experience very close to my heart... and I've prayed for my children, who are not Baptists.

I'm not associating the baptism of the Holy Spirit as specifically with speaking in tongues as some might. Paul says clearly that not all gifts are for everyone. I just thought it a good story to demonstrate where I am in the whole understanding of the Baptsim of the Holy Spirit.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

So, Reuel, this means that you believe the baptism referred to in Ephesians 4:5 to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I'm not challenging the thought, I'd just never considered it before (Baptist... you know.)

I think that the physical observance of this mikvah (baptism) represents the spiritual mikvah for those whom have truly come into covenant with Adonai. Also, the phrase "one immersion" or "one baptism" can be similar to saying that there is one Elohim refering to one G'd. Yet, there are really many other elohim described in the scriptures not specifically referring to the one true G'd. I would say that it is the same with this passage in Ephesians 4:5. There is one true mikvah from above, but many various other mikvah called for by .

Shalom b'Yeshua,

Reuel

[Mark]

So, when the Jewish people were baptized in Acts 2:41, was it a mikvah of cleansing (as described specifically in ) or was it the rebirth as a proselyte of this new faith? They were already Jews. It would seem strange that they would receive this baptism without further explanation of what it was. They did understand mikvah, as cleansing; and to only say, "Arise and be baptized," they would understand it to mean ritual cleansing so as to prepare them for Temple worship.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I believe that the proselytes in Acts 2:41 experienced the mikvah from above. A key passage would be Acts 2:38...

"Kefa said to them, "Repent, and be immersed, every one of you, in the name of Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Any other thoughts?

Berachot b'Yeshua,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

I believe that the proselytes in Acts 2:41 experienced the mikvah from above. A key passage would be Acts 2:38...

"Kefa said to them, "Repent, and be immersed, every one of you, in the name of Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Any other thoughts?

I think there's a dual significance here. Since there were two groups of people, Y'hudim & Gerim, I believe that a couple of things took place. One, the gerim (righteous gentiles who kept ) actually converted to Judaism and became proselytes. These are the 3,000 who are described as being added to Kehilat Yisrael, because you can't add something that was already there (ie... the Y'hudim). They were of the group that was immersed in a physical mikvah.
Two, all who believed, both the Y'hudim & the Proselytes, received the immersion of the Ruach HaKodesh (the mikvah from shamayim).

[Mark]

I'm sorry, Notzari,

I don't beieve that there is any way that we can assume that gentiles were involved. Remember that this occured during the Feast of Shavout and there would be many pilgrims there ffrom all over. Since it is not until Acts 10 and 11 that Jerusalem acknowledges salvation extends even unto the gentiles, I think we have to assume that Acts 2 is only referring to Jews.

Yet, I understand the two of you to be in agreement that baptism that occured in Acts 2 to be a spiritual baptism.

Shall we go on to Acts 19? Or, is there really any difference between the two understandings of mikvah? Baptism wan't "the sign of the covenant", at least not in the understanding of the Jews- circumcision was the sign of the covenant. Baptism (mikvah) was for those who were "of the covenant" already, realizing that there was more needed than just being "of the promise" to have access and fellowship with God through Temple service. The only disadvabtage to being "unclean" is that you were not able to participate in Temple worshio or the Feasts. It was required (in ) to Mikvah before. Yet, that same mikvah would mean more to a gentile. Before, he was not of the promise, yet he has been invited to participate as well.

There was a mixed multitude that came along with the sons of Abraham and Israel when they passed through the Red Sea. They assimilated into the Jewish culture and were thus naturalized. Baptism seems to be a representation of that same event on an individual basis- leaving behind what was and starting out a new and fresh identity. I'm thinking out loud here, making it up as I go along; so please feel free to correct me if I'm drifting off. But, as I re-read the posts, this may be exactly what Notzari is trying to get across to me.

Sorry, Notzari, I can be dense. This is hayfever season and I live in the grass seed capitol of the world. I'm drugged half out of my mind on antihistamines

[Chizuk Emunah]

Okay, my mistake. Upon closer examination, gerim is translated as proselyte.
However, based on the fact that it says 3,000 were added, I still believe there was a conversion that took place among some of those who were present.