Worship

[Mason]

Hi all!

I am new here and to Messianic Judaism as well. There are many questions that I have and really don't know where to begin. If I can get some thoughts on these few for starters I will be thankful.

1 - What type of Siddur would be the most appropriate for a Messianic?

2 - If the only synagogue is of Conservative Jewish persuasion, then would you attend this or stay with your current Church for group worship and just observe shabbot as you personally are called to do by the Spirit? (Incidentally, I find it funny they call themselves Conservative when in reality they are extremely liberal)

3 - It seems to me that oral tradition has added much to what the says. Do you take the at its' word or do you follow every single point in the oral tradition?

4 - Has anyone ever heard of a "mainstream" Minister/Priest becoming a rabbi?

5 - How many of you are ethnic Jews and how many are Gentiles that have sought our Jewish heritage coming from a "mainstream" Church.

I know this is a lot. I am not sure where to put this thread so if someone can educate me on that protocol here that would be nice as well. I know most of this is rather random, but I need a starting point and I didn't want to start 500 threads!

Shalom

[Mark]

Hi Mason,

I very much appreciate your enthusiasm and desire to know these things. I wanted to be first to answer you because I'm sure that there are others here (wise and knowledgeable) who will disagree with some of the things I will say to you . Please take our answers prayerfully and weigh them in the uniqueness of your situation.

First, many Messianic Synagogues use Greenburg's Messianic Siddur . It can be purchased through "Messianic Liturgy Resources www.messianicliturgy.com/ . A less expensive siddur ( I believe it is paperback ) has been developed by Tim Hegg at www.torahresource.com/ .There are several versions of Messianic Suddurim available on the web downloadable in PDF. While Robert Parsons is not pro- for gentile believers, his material is good ( he just qualifies his answers at the end ) his siddur is located at www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/holidays.html . There are others, and some of them very good, that you can find by simply searching the web for "Shabbat siddur yeshua". The siddur itself is likely to delve very little into various strains of Messianic theology.

The answer to number 2, from my perspective is absolutely not! The one consistent doctrinal position of all non-Messianic Jewish synagogues is that Yeshua is not the Messiah. They have developed as convincing arguments of this as the CHurch has that is irrelevant. I don't know who you are or the depth of your grounding in your theology (though you do say that you are new to the Messianic understanding). Learning and observing in a Jewish synagogue has incredible value for you; but only if you are connected with a solid community of believers in Messiah with whom you can discuss the Scriptures. In most cases, the Jewish community is not interested in prosyletizing you and will make no overt attempts to convert you to Judaism (unless you come in trying to teach them about the Messiah- and then, usually, they'll just ask you to leave). The problem is what often we find in our own hearts when we break away from the Church and go straight into Judaism. We begin to see the inconsistencies in Christianity and often develop a distrust toward everything that we've been taught in Christianity. This can even manifest itself in open hostility toward Christianity and may eventually lead to the rejection of Yeshua as Messiah ( not because of theological reasons; but just because of whom you've chosen to identify with ). We have seen a classic example of this in the posts of "Blake" and I encourage you to read his posts. If there is no hostility in the Church you've attended and you can find support from them, I recommend youp not to cut your ties with them. I recommend you obsorb what you can here and from other resources like First Fruits of Zion www.ffoz.org and Resources (listed above). I also recommend www.restorationfoundation.org which is has great material from Christian pastors with PhDs who have rediscovered the Jewishness of their faith and are moving toward a Observant lifestyle. I would also check www.yashanet.com for listings of Messianic congregations in your state. YOu may not have one listed very close to you; but if you contact them, they may well know of a group that is meeting closer. An example is that I traveled seventy miles to visit the closest group I had heard of and there found out about a group that was meeting less than half a mile from my house. Messianic groups are typically very small and more often than not meet in individual homes.

In Christianity you have "oral tradition" as well. Christmas and Easter fall under that catagory. Even theologically, the writings of Josephus to Matthew Henry are commentaries that and para-biblical resources that many will hold as authoritative as Scripture itself. Rabbinic oral tradition is no different. There is some really good, very powerfully written, spirit-filled perspectives in Talmud and Mishnah, et. al.; but there is also garbage: just like what we find in Christian commentaries. It's important to know the Scriptures. The rest has value; but keep your foundation sure.

Question 3: It depends upon what you mean by "Mainstream". I know of pastors from Salvation Army, Baptist, United Pentacostal, Assemblies fo God, Friends/Brethren, and Seventh Day Adventist.

It is important to understand that Messianic Judaism is a very broad theological understanding with many variations and (please excuse the term ) denominations. One of the perspectives is "Two-House" which believes that if you have a heart for , then you, somewhere way back in your ethnic background, have Hebrew blood flowing through your veins in some percentage. Some national Messianic organizations like MJAA only allow full membership to ethnic Jews, gentiles are considered "honored guests". With this in mind, and since we don't compare statistics on a huge scale, it's difficult to come up with a good number. Most congregations that I have had contact with tend to run about 75% gentile.

Thanks for your questions. Please understanding the opinions that you hear on this thread do not necessarily reflect the views of... One of the greatest expressions of Judaism is the freedom to express differences of opinion and I invite those who disagree with me on any of these points to post so that Mason can gain a balanced perspective. It is said that if you have two Jews in discussion then you have three opinions represented. You might as well get your feet wet here.

If you would like to send me a personal message on where you are located, I may be able to assist you in locating a Messianic group in your area.

Blessings,

Mark

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Thank you Mark. Well said!

I would have to say that your view and articulate response to Mason's questions reflect the heart of this forum. But, it is of course alright for people to disagree and share other opinions. I myself am not 100% Jewish, but have Jewish blood on both sides of my family (even some from the tribe of Levi). But, regardless of my percentage, I have converted fully to being a Messianic Jew. But, that is the beauty of our Heavenly Father's ...for those whom take hold of it, it is a tree of life for both Jew and Gentile! And, for those whom sojourn with Israel...they are to be treated as native-born sons (B'midbar/Num. 15:15-16, Vayikra/Lev. 19:34).

Shalom and Welcome!

Reuel

[Mason]

Well that answers/confirms things. MArk I have a long story I could share about my background. It is well grounded in Christ no doubt, but this seems to be a Spirit led time of searching for me right now. I have never been in this position before and it is not comfortable right now.

Concerning ethnicity, I am amazed at some level of, dare I say, hypocrisy on the mainstream end and the differenct sects of Messianic observance. You referred to them as denomination-like. I have noticed this is my research as well. My long understanding of the New Testament has always directed me that those that don't observe aren't to criticize this that do and vice versa. Also, Paul says now there is neither Jew nor Gentile. I have always thought this meant not that there are no longer true Jews and the Gentiles replaced them, rather there is no distinction between the two if both are in Christ. If a Gentile accepts Christ then he/she is grafted in. It seems some believe they are still outsiders, and some believe they are the "New Israel".

At any rate, I am going into this this slow as I am not eally sure if this is the way that G-d is leading me or not at this point. We shall see. But, I am observing bit by bit as I am so led and fully understand.

Shalom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Also, Paul says now there is neither Jew nor Gentile. I have always thought this meant not that there are no longer true Jews and the Gentiles replaced them, rather there is no distinction between the two if both are in Christ. If a Gentile accepts Christ then he/she is grafted in. It seems some believe they are still outsiders, and some believe they are the "New Israel".

Yes, much of what you described above is something called "Replacement Theology" which is not only un-Biblical, but is something that is not accepted on this forum. You are right, in Messiah there is neither Jew or Gentile in the sense that we are one before Adonai and do not have a better standing than one another before Him. We also know that Goyim (Gentiles) whom take hold of the covenant become part of the commonwealth of Yisrael, and not the other way around. Therefore, Goyim (Gentiles) become part of Yisrael, but by no means replaces them. Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 56 tell us those Goyim that take hold of and The Covenant will recieve better names than native born sons and daughters of Israel (whom have rejected the covenant)...therefore they are no longer Goyim...but, fellow citizens! It is my hope that you will be one of those whom recieves one of these good names!

Shalom in Yeshua,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shalom Mason! I will try to answer your questions as best as possible.

1) It depends on where you walk is. Since you are just starting out I would recommend the one at www.torahresource.com. As you grow and learn more, you can pick up an Artscroll siddur.

2) I agree with Mark's position here.

Learning and observing in a Jewish synagogue has incredible value for you; but only if you are connected with a solid community of believers in Messiah with whom you can discuss the Scriptures.

Ideally, you can find a Messianic congregation that follows a traditional liturgy (though you may or may not like that) and is firmly ground in and Moshiach.

3) There are some parts of Judaism that are "Oral Tradition," and other parts that were handed down to Moshe as part of the Oral . And there are even some Oral practices, or halacha that were handed down to us by Y'hoshua HaMoshiach and the Yerushalayim Beit Din. My standards for keeping Oral are these (and these will vary from individual to individual):
1. They don't contradict the Written
2. They don't contradict Y'hoshua's halacha
3. They don't contradict the halacha of the Yerushalayim Beit Din (as headed by Ya'akov HaTzeddik)

Now back to your question. The Written must be taken at its word without question. Where the Oral comes in, is to make use of halacha in order to interpret the Written .

4) I have no idea. I have heard of a former Baptist pastor who converted to Judaism, and one former AOG pastor who returned to Judaism, but those are the only two I know of.

5) I think Mark's numbers are about right. Most congregations are about 75% Gentile and 25% Jewish. Most of us, including those that are Jewish, came out of churches.

[Tzav_laTzav]

1 - What type of Siddur would be the most appropriate for a Messianic? The one that agrees most closely with the Bible and which you can understand and pray with sincerity

2 - If the only synagogue is of Conservative Jewish persuasion, then would you attend this or stay with your current Church for group worship and just observe shabbot as you personally are called to do by the Spirit? (Incidentally, I find it funny they call themselves Conservative when in reality they are extremely liberal) My shul works very well for me, but should it be dissolved, I would do my best to meet with other believers on shabbat.

3 - It seems to me that oral tradition has added much to what the says. Do you take the at its' word or do you follow every single point in the oral tradition? Where the writings exceed , or where they go against what I see teaching, I do not accept them; however, I think that in many cases, they build very safe fences. I am still learning.

4 - Has anyone ever heard of a "mainstream" Minister/Priest becoming a rabbi? I have occasionally been around such who loved to use that title.

5 - How many of you are ethnic Jews and how many are Gentiles that have sought our Jewish heritage coming from a "mainstream" Church. I came out of 50 years in one church organization into my shul, after "testing the waters" in three other shuls, because the church never had legitimate answers for the questions I began to ask as a teen, but it took major trauma to move me out of the church.

[Loxody]

Jan 4, 2007 6:05:38 GMT -8 Mark said:

In Christianity you have "oral tradition" as well. Christmas and Easter fall under that catagory. Even theologically, the writings of Josephus to Matthew Henry are commentaries that and para-biblical resources that many will hold as authoritative as Scripture itself. Rabbinic oral tradition is no different. There is some really good, very powerfully written, spirit-filled perspectives in Talmud and Mishnah, et. al.; but there is also garbage: just like what we find in Christian commentaries. It's important to know the Scriptures. The rest has value; but keep your foundation sure.

I have to disagree - rabbinic oral tradition is different in that everything is based on , not on trying to adopt pagan or gentile practices like Christianity.

What type of Siddur would be the most appropriate for a Messianic?

For Shabbat, probably Jeremiah Greenberg's Messianic Shabbat Siddur or some other Messianic Shabbat siddur.  For the weekdays, you'll have to use a traditional Jewish siddur (Artscroll, Koren) as there are no Messianic weekday siddurim yet.

[alon]

Benayahu said: I have to disagree - rabbinic oral tradition is different in that everything is based on , not on trying to adopt pagan or gentile practices like Christianity.

Kol Nidre? Or how about naming the months? It is unfortunate, but there are some pagan influences in Judaism. Not as much as Christianity, granted. Christianity was founded by pagans who desired to erase every vestage of Judaism from their new religion, while Judaism was established by Elohim Himself. But men got ahold of it and ...

Messianic Judaism doesn't just accept what any denomination or sect says about a thing. Everything is passed through the fire many times, and what is true is kept. However many things from both Christianity and Judaism are discarded. However if one wishes to know which we think is closer to the truth in the majority of cases, they only need to look at what we call ourselves: Messianic Judaism.

Kind of says it all right there.

Dan C