Religion or Relationship?

[Tavor]

Greetings and Shalom,
I was looking at a Christian program this morning (Joyce Meyer) and the topic was "Religion or Relationship?" The highlights of the discussion was to seek a vibrant, heart relationship with the Lord rather than follow a bunch of rules and regulations that would constitute a dead religion. To a large extent, I believe that is where we should be with Adonai.

Being new to , however, how would you suggest I (or anyone) apply these principles to observance? I really want to know!

BTW, the same theme on Joyce Meyer will continue tomorrow, so new content will be added to this thread that will probably make for interesting and helpful discussion.

Thanks and blessings,

Lynette

[Mark]

Hi Tavor,

It's a really good question. And we easily overlook the purpose of Observance in the process. This was, from one perspective, the problem addressed in the book of Galatians.

Here's the analogy: say, you want to get married... as a six year old little girl. With the help of someone who can spell properly, you write down all the expectations you have of your spouse and how you anticipate showing him love in your marriage relationship. As you grow older, you study this list and do not allow yourself to change from this perspective or understanding.

As you can imagine, your new husband has going to have his own ideas as to what a marriage relationship should be like. His perspective, however, is going to be much more mature and broader in scope. So, the question I must present to you is this: are you going to change your perspective to accomodate your husband's expectations or will you force him to to accept you just as who you are... after all, he agreed to marry you knowing who are now.

Adonai, has an idea of what He expects out of our relationship with Him. He has defined what love really looks like and how it can be shown to Him and to the people around us. He has a complete and full understanding of whaT He is talking about... while we are coming into this relationship with the understanding of a six year old.

What Christianity has predominately done has crossed her arms and stuck out her lower lip and said, God loves me the way I am therefore I will not change, regardless of what He says. She is unbending in her relationship with Adonai, holding His righteousness against Him as the barrier to their relationship: holding Him at arms length.

is not a condition of Adonai's love. While we were yet enemies, He died for us. Yet, it is we who refuse to draw close to Him in that loving relationship.

Mark

[Nachshon]

First, I think it is that people think that is what "religion" means. It isn't. Simply, it means "a set of beliefs or practices." I even have those in my relationship with my parents.

Secondly, every relationship takes place within a structure. Our relationships with family, friends, spouses, etc. have certain rules that we base them on. They're necessary for relationship to ocurr. If I try to have a relationship with my parents, without acknowledging taht I am their child, and operating by the rules of that relationship, how can I have any relationship with them? All the love, the "heart-felt" things that would happen in that relationship are strained, or vanish.
That's what the is. It defines our role and God's role in this relationship. Within the structure of the we have a loving relationship as Father and children, or as Husband and wife, or whichever metaphore you choose to apply to it. It is about a loving relationship, and it is based on certain principles, like any other relationship.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Tavor]

mark said:

What Christianity has predominately done has crossed her arms and stuck out her lower lip and said, God loves me the way I am therefore I will not change, regardless of what He says. She is unbending in her relationship with Adonai, holding His righteousness against Him as the barrier to their relationship: holding Him at arms length.

Exactly what do you mean by this, Mark? Do you mean it's because Christianity doesn't perform in the technical sense, it means Christians are lawless and don't care about the principles of Scripture?

I know there are plenty of phony Christians who will say "Lord, Lord" whose heart is not in sync with the Lord's and who have a world view. But what about those who love the Lord, and maybe they don't legally perform all the commandments of ?

My understanding of is basically it was designed to show us our shortcomings compared to a holy God. Those 613 mitzvot were given as a long list of rules and regulations the Israelites had to perform to perfection. Can any of us really do that? I've seen some postings here about Shabbat, etc., where in order to observe 100%, a person has to go through terrible contortions in order to perform correctly. Is that what God really wants? Or is He more interested in a relationship and our worship?

I would say that is something we should do and obey because we love God and have a heart for His principles, rather than following a religious system of rules that kill.

Maybe I'm not getting it yet. I believe is important and we shouldn't exclude it as part of our life and worship, but maybe some people go overboard and become legalistic in their approach? I'm trying to get a sense of what Yeshua wanted for each of us and follow that pattern.

Thanks!

Lynette

[Nachshon]

It is possible to keep the entire , afterall, it is written, "It is near to you, in your heart and in your mouth that you may do it." and also, "And they were walking in the commandments and judgments of YHWH without reproach" (Luke 1:6)
Here is what John said, "for he who says, 'I know Him,' and keeps not His commandments is lying and the truth is not in him. But he who keeps His word in this one the love of God is truly perfected, for in this we know that we are in Him." I John 2:3-4

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

Hi Tavor,

First, I'd like to show you some things that I pick up from your response to me that suggest you've come from an antinomian (anti-) back ground. Each time you speak o fthe , you use past tense. "...it WAS designed...", "that Israelites HAD to perform..." You also speak of the in a vast generality "long list of rules and regulations that Israleites had to perform to perfection." Your verbage suggests that the 613 mitzvot are something ominous; yet, when you actually sit down and read the list, the vast majority of it is common courtesy (being nice to people). Generally speaking, growing up in main stream Protestantism, all that we have been taught about the is that it was given to the Jews a long time ago and it was too hard for them to endure so when Jesus came and freed them from the Law, they were happy because they could now live just like us. That's not exactly what the Bible says happened. What is, how it is applicable and how the Paul and the First Century Christians lived within its context (see Acts 28:17) is often tabboo subject matter.

It's interesting if you ever get the chance to get involved in inner-city ministry. Ask one of the street ladies why they don't go to Church. The answer they will give is because all of the unnecessary rules, the high expectations, the fear of condemnation if they should mess anything up. The Church scene is absolutely foreign to them, therefore, what you may see as beautiful and orderly, they see as ominous.

You're exactly right that IS designed to show us where we fail to meet Adonai's standard of righteousness. Yet, observance is an unattainable standard (not because it is so difficult but because we are so sinful see Romans 3:10-11). Do we abandon the standard of God because we can't attain it? That's why we are told to GROW in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Yeshua, Messiah. The Psalmist tells us to depart from evil and do good, seek peace and pursue it. Without , we have no biblical definition of good or peace. We only have our own carnal understanding. Following means applying God's definitions to our way of thinking about right and wrong.

I'm afraid for this world and all the Spiritual people in it who have "a good thing" in their faith and believe that they have arrived at a relationship with Adonai. Every religious order is filled with good and spiritual people. Often the vocabulary is exactly the same whether you be Baptist, Wiccan, Rajneeshee, Mormon, Protestant, Catholic or whatever. In every sect of religion, people can justify their faith because of uplifting spiritual experiences where they have met with God (god). Messiah Yeshua did not say that by this you shall know you are my disciples, by the peculiar pink and vibrant glow. He said it is because you have love for one another. Guess what, Messiah Yeshua's definition of love is the summation of all of . is God's definition of love.

In James 2:10 we are told that whoever keeps the whole Law and yet offends in one point, he is guilty of all. The Church says, "I don't keep any of it therefore I'm guilty of none of it." That's some strange, twisted logic. What this statement does is levels the playing field. It means that me and the guy selling drugs to kids down the street are no different. I am just as destined for Hell as he is, except for the grace of Adonai, through Messiah's sacrifice. Yet does that mean that I can live just the way that he lives and participate in that grace? Scripture says no.

I can't speak for the entire forum. There are all kinds of folks invited with varying zeal and perspective. But, in my congregation, we don't tell anyone how they are supposed to live. We have some in our congregation who work on Saturday. We teach the Scriptures in a way that allows each person to grow in their own understanding and walk with the Messiah. No one becomes observant all at once. Much of it seems hard and foreign at first, yet, as one begins to own each step of obedience for themself, it becomes a gift and a beautiful part of our relationship with Adonai. observance is about relationship- not doing what we think will please Him, or that we've been told should please Him by those around us; but experiencing the joy of giving ourselves over to Him in every aspect of our lives.

I hope this is helpful to you.

Mark

[Tavor]

Thank you both for your replies, they are very helpful in piecing this all together.

A vibrant relationship with Adonai has always been a desire of mine...but so has obedience. This is one reason I wanted to get away from the 21st century Laodicean, lukewarm, hypocritical Christian church and go back to First Century faith. God has been nudging me to make a change to line up with what He wants to develop in my life.

In all honesty, the lifestyle is a different and challenging one for me right now, because there are a lot of questions that need answering and many new ways of doing things that I never did before. So I very much appreciate your help and patience as I learn these things.

Sincerely,

Lynette

[Ely]

Mark, your last post was very edifying, thank you so much.

I particularly like what you said about us growing in our understanding of . For me this is a major point that "Christianity" totally disregards in thinking about . For example, I've been challenged on a couple of occaisons regarding when Paul left Ephesus to keep a feast. "Why," it is asked "didn't Paul command the Ephesians to go with him to keep the feast." They reason that this shows that not for Gentiles.

What these people keep conveniently ovelooking is that the Jerusalem Council had decided to be lenient with Gentiles who were coming into faith straight out of idolatry. The Ephesians especially iftted into this category as seen in Acts 19. These people had zero background in and could not be expected to suddenly step into perfect obedience. They needed time and space to gradually learn the way of YAH in the synagogues.

This is exactly parallel with most of us. We have grown up in churches with little or no teaching. Thus, we need time to learn things like how to keep Sabbath and how to eat properly and so on. Personally, I'm really excited at being in this position because I know that I will never cease learning YAH's ways. the more we turn our hearts toward Him and ask Him to illuminate His , the more we will mature and develop in our walks and be blessed as we do so.

Baruch HaShem!

[Tavor]

Exactly, Ely. This is a learning process and it takes time. Gentiles who come to must learn the ways of and make that their new lifestyle.

You've made some excellent points regarding the "Torahlessness" of Christianity. The bottom line of is obedience to God because we love Him. We can see Yah's character and nature in the He gave us to live by.

It's not legalistic at all.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

The bottom line of is obedience to God because we love Him. We can see Yah's character and nature in the He gave us to live by.

It's not legalistic at all.

Amein!

But, you are right there are some that forget the love relationship involved and become intirely too legalistic in their approach. Nonetheless, the actions of others is not excuse for lawlessness in others. We also have to keep in mind that there is a difference as to what the word of God commands us to do and what the Rabbis command us to do. Make sure you test the scriptures when those on the forum here would bring you under the bondage of the Rabbinic law. If we simply follow the written word of God...it is not so burdensome. That is why Yeshua said my yoke is easy and my burden light. Rabbinic tradition is good as long as it magnifies the and doesn't make it a burden.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Tavor]

admin said:

The bottom line of is obedience to God because we love Him. We can see Yah's character and nature in the He gave us to live by.

It's not legalistic at all.

Amein!

But, you are right there are some that forget the love relationship involved and become intirely too legalistic in their approach. Nonetheless, the actions of others is not excuse for lawlessness in others. We also have to keep in mind that there is a difference as to what the word of God commands us to do and what the Rabbis command us to do. Make sure you test the scriptures when those on the forum here would bring you under the bondage of the Rabbinic law. If we simply follow the written word of God...it is not so burdensome. That is why Yeshua said my yoke is easy and my burden light. Rabbinic tradition is good as long as it magnifies the and doesn't make it a burden.

Shalom,

Reuel

Good points, Reuel...we must be careful in discerning what comes from the Word and what is of men. The Rabbi's who don't know Yeshua likewise are not filled with the Ruach HaKodesh/Holy Spirit, therefore we need to know the difference and should not give the Rabbinic traditions much credence. They only cause confusion and make everything difficult.

Shalom Chauverim,

Lynette