Should we avoid all animal products?

[Mark]

Should we avoid the use of and/or consumption of animal products? Does suggest that the use of animals in such a way that requires their death or "slavery" be avoided? If so, how do we justify the use of animals in and the commandment to kill, and in many cases eat animals as observance?

[Bob]

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


God told man to subdue the earth and to have dominion over all the creation. This does not tell us to co-exist with fellow creations.

He did not create the animals with the same rights as He created Man.
This does NOT give Man the right to destroy but places the stewardship of the Earth in his hands... to do with as he wills until such time as the Almighty takes that privilege and responsibility away.

Also we need to remember that the first killing recorded it the Bible is done by God.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

It has been taught that this is the first sacrifice. That God himself sacrificed for Adam and Eve and clothed them with the skins of the sacrificed animals as well as giving them a picture of atonement.

[Mark]

Hi Vegangirl,

First, I want you to understand that I appreciate your zeal and conviction. Taking personal ownership of one’s lifestyle and making determined choices to stay a course is a necessary element of biblical faith.

Holding personal convictions, personal oaths of conduct concerning one’s relationship with Adonai ought to be encouraged, not discouraged, regardless if they are biblically definable as righteousness or the abstinence from sin. For many these convictions include vegetarianism at differing levels. One rabbi I know will not eat lamb at all, not suggesting that it is sin for anyone to do so; but his personal oath of worship.

That being said, there is zero biblical support to suggest that there is any wrong in eating animal flesh. Contrarily, Scripture tells us plainly that animal flesh was given to us for food in Genesis 9.

Your retort that it was not the case in the beginning is, frankly irrelevant. The same argument is used to say that we are not supposed to wear clothes. Yes, these commandments were brought on as a consequence of sin. Yet, to try to re-establish the relationship on the basis of a previous condition is exactly what the Israelites did in Numbers 14:40, after we believed the ten spies with the bad report instead of Joshua and Caleb. We tried to obey "the previous command" and were handily beaten.

To suggest that it is a sin to eat meat is to put the Word of Adonai in contradiction. The commands men to eat meat of the sacrifices. Our Messiah partook of the Passover sacrifice lamb, ate fish definitely, and most likely would have also eaten pigeon or quail. God, Himself, is recorded as haven eaten beef in Genesis 18:8. The consumption of animal flesh cannot be described anywhere as sin.

[Prodigal Girl]

I have noticed something. The world, pop culture etc, will try to distract from real sin as named and described in the Bible, by coming up with other things that are NOT named and described as sin in the Bible, and trying to pass them off as sin. Then they will lift up a person who believes such things are sin as somehow a better person; irregardless of whether or not that person breaks Biblical teaching about what is real sin in Yeshua's eyes. I can think of a celebrity or two here.

[Mark]

HI Vegangirl,

I haven't got time this morning to share what I believe is the intent of this passage; but I wanted to let you know that you can relax. The Greek word "bro-mah" is descriptive of food in general, not animal meat specifically. The King James Bible will usually translate the Greek word "kre-has" which means animal meat as "flesh". This text does not in anyway suggest that you should eat animal products; in fact, if you have not eaten meat in a very long time, it could be dangerous for you to start. It could potentially make you quite ill.

Mark

[Otto]

Rom 14: Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. [6] He who eats meat eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

[1] Disputable matters: If God says in his word this you can eat, and this you cannot eat. Then it is not a disputable matter.
So! Roman chapter 14 is about people who eat only vegetables. And the people who eat meat, looking down on him who does not eat meat. This is a Disputable matters. Because the does not say you can’t eat only vegetables.

Rom 14: 14
as one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no (kosher) food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
[20] Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of (kosher) food. All (kosher) food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.

What Paul is saying “vegetables or meat” its all-kosher food so let’s move on in the Lord!

[Otto]

: ( oh so you’re saying I am weak because I eat veggies?

I did not write it.

Food is just not kosher unless its made kosher. Right?

God did not; create all animals to be called food.

Lev 11:1-47
The LORD said… 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: (call food.) If it is not on the list it is not even called food.

[Mark]

You want to compare this passage contextually to 1st Corinthians 8.

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
(1 Corinthians 8:4-9)

Paul goes on; but I ended here because of the similar idea that those who eat only vegetables are weak.

There is a broader issue going on here; noticing the phrase in Romans 14:3

Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth...

It would appear that the perspective of the one who is not eating is the more disciplined and the one that who eats is spiritually weak. This is the thinking that Paul is contrasting.

In 1st Corinthians 8, the reason for avoiding meat is detailed as participation in idolatry. This this was very common for the day, it would be appropriate that the reasoning in Romans 14 is similar. The weakness of not eating meat, then, is the thinking that idolatrious activity retains some element of power over the believer.

This should not be considered a carte blanche free for all to particpate in the ritual idolatry that we will see utterly condemned in Revelations 2:14 and 20. Paul is saying that we ought not to hold this issue against one another as we learn and grow in our relationship with Messiah.

[Prodigal Girl]

If the only meat available to buy has all been sacrificed to idols, should you eat it? Because according to the common teaching of the time, if you eat that meat sacrificed to idols you are worshiping the idol. Eating that meat is part of worshiping it. Or, would it be better to just go vegetarian? Then you would not have the problem.
Similar to alcoholic drinks. If all the alcoholic drinks available in a particular locale have been blessed by idols in ceremonies, should you drink it, or should you just refrain from drinking alcohol altogether? Keep in mind also that there is a specific commandment in the that says not to consume wine made by non-Jews. The reason being, it has been sacrificed to idols.
Eaten in an authentic Chinese restaurant lately? There's a household temple set up and in effect, you are eating food which has been dedicated to idols. There simply WERE no places for believers to get meat that had not been sacrificed to idols, in many cases, in particular the kind of locales where Paul wrote some of his letters to. It could be misconstrued, if they were seen participating in idol worship (i. e. eating).

[Mark]

So, just to throw a screw-ball curve into the discussion:
Is it okay to go to a chinese restaurant and just order vegeterian?

[Mark]

I need to add a note here. For some reason, vegangirl got deleted out of the forum. It may have something to do with a fire that happened a month ago, or it may be something that either I or she inadvertently did. If you read through these posts and find that I or someone else is talking to someone specifically who isn't there, that's why. She's has re-joined but I'm afraid her previous comments are lost. I apologize both to her and all the other readers who may be confused.

Mark

[vegangirl]

Bob... or any one
God killed animal one time for Adam and eves clothes .. because they sinned. Thats the only reason why.

Animals should not be killed for sport or clothes, its wrong.

I know Adoni knows its wrong.. I know how animals are killed for clothes, theses days.. Its gross and sick.
If people new how many things are tested on animals and whats in our food even Dog and cat food have animal byproducts in them how gross is that?


Dog and cats are animals thats just wired to me.. I know us humans would not want to eat human byproducts from other humans!

[Mark]

HI Bri'gette,

I want to ask a pointed question that we had discussed earlier; but those who are not familiar with you don't yet undersand.

Do you believe that eating meat is a sin against the commandments of Adonai or is it your own personal conviction?

[vegangirl]

I don't believe eating meat is a sin at all..
Unless its not Kosher then I believe it may be a sin.

I know what happens to animals and how they are killed its very very :*( I think if a person eats at KFC its a sin! I know how they treat there animals ... (KFC Not Kosher) MacDonalds)

So is it a sin if people eat meat and its not Kosher? or eat at fast food places? Even some Kosher places are not Kosher and PETA is suing them...

I can't help but love animals so much..

[Bob]

Vegangirl,
I agree with you in many ways on the mistreatment of animals. Adonai commanded us to love the animals around us and to show them respect (see the thread on kindness to animals).
I am a hunter and definately enjoy eating meat but little sickens me more than someone killing an animal just for its horns, antlers, or skin. Adonai gave us the animals for food. not to waste.
Come to think of it there is one thing that sickens me more... That is someone who shoots and wounds an animal. The kill should be quick and painless. If its not then the hunter did not do his job right and I believe he has sinned.
The command for killing a kosher animal was to be quick and painless. The animal was to be treated with respect so as not to be overly afraid and a swift stroke instantly killing the animal was necessary.
As far as testing (torturing) animals... ... I wont go there. It makes my blood boil.