Evil Speech

[Mark]

What is loshon hara (evil speech) and how is it described by ?

What do we do to identify it in ourselves and how do we go about correcting it in our community?

[Tyler]

The way to identify it is by the fruit it produces (in our own lives and in others).

"A tree is identified by its fruit. Make a tree good, and its fruit will be good. Make a tree bad, and its fruit will be bad. You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. A good person produces good words from a good heart, and an evil person produces evil words from an evil heart. And I tell you this, that you must give an account on judgment day of every idle word you speak. The words you say now reflect your fate then; either you will be justified by them or you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:33-37)

As for your second question: How do we correct it in our community?

Well, offhand I would say we should begin with ourselves. Personally I find that shutting-up often works wonders (heheh).

Seriously though, to choose words carefully and to think before speaking; checking if there's any selfish or prideful motive in the words. If there's any doubt, keeping silent is always wise.

And most importantly to always pray:

Elohai, n'tzor l'shoni mei'ra, u's'phatai midabeir mi'r'ma.
(My God, guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking deceitfully).

and

Yih'yu l'ratzon imrei fi v'hegyon libi l'fanecha Adonai Tzuri v'Go'ali.
(May the expressions of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart find favor before You, Adonai, my Rock and my Redeemer).

[Tyler]

Oops. Just noticed you're "Tazria" post Mark. Same Scripture quotes... coincidence? nah!

Shabbat Shalom my brother! And L'Shana Tova!!!

[Mark]

It's important to me that we take the time to burden through this question. I remember being counselled as a very young boy to think about what I am going to say before I say it and figure out if it is appropriate or not. It is a practice that I may have gotten out of. The Proverbs are a great help in this area. I remember reading through in collge and thinking what a kill-joy Solomon must have been. My heart has changed a lot since then. Maybe he's not as rediculous as I once thought he was.

I used to think words were insignificant- that it is action that changes the world. God chose the foolishness of preaching. Foolishness is right! Yet, it doesn't take too deep a look into the history of our world that continents have been reshaped by a single word. They are so readily available to us that we take them absolutely for granted; but our words have tremendous power- and by them we can draw people unto Adonai or thrust them away: little words, trivial words, insignificant under the breath sorts of words will send a rippling affect through their hearers long after we who have spoken them have forgotten.

[Mark]

The rabbinical answer is that anything you may say that will devalue a person, whether the information be true or not, is lashon hara (evil speach) and is to be avoided. The exception to this is if you must provide information about someone so as to avoid the inevitable hurt toward another person: you probably would want to let your sister know that the fellow she wants to ask to babysit her kids is a convicted child molester. Even in this, the rabbinical standard is that you cannot speak evil of a person if you have any personal gain from that evil speach: you would rather watch her kids yourself or your children were the victims of this child molester and you want to cause him as much as possible. These conditions would forbid you from speaking directly of evil concerning this person. This is often and easily gotten around by providing information or evidence which will allow a person to make their own conclusion without specifically addressing the issue: providing a photocopy of court records or a newspaper article that tells of the fellow's conviction would be permissable; but o engage in conversation regarding the information would not.

It is also required to speak evil of someone when reporting a crime to the appropriate authorities (Leviticus 5:1). To not provide necessary information to allow a judge to make a good diecision is a greater injustice than speaking lashon hara.

There is unquestionably a balance of honestly coming to terms with what we say and why we say it. The end result should always for the purpose of building up and never for tearing down. If you speak evil because it is juicy, best swallow it down. If you speak evil and it is dry, there is more likely an appropriateness to it. Never speak without thinking of the impact from every perspective and if you don't think you have time to work through that process, it's probably best that you not utter the thought in the first place.

The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out. The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable: but the mouth of the wicked speaketh frowardness.
(Proverbs 10:31-32)


Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
(Colossians 4:6)

[nasah]

Definitely a great topic, for out of the abundance of the heart a mouth speaks.
Either evil or good comes forth.

This is an area i still need training in, though i believe it's gotten better.
For quite some time now i've been disgusted with the common chant: "sticks and stones hurt my bones, but words can't hurt me"

Shalom,
nasah

[Deleted]

This is a lesson that should be learned and considered.

The rabbinical thoughts on this topic of Loshan Hara is interesting and thought provoking.

I am reading an article with regards to this topic.

The one area that has me baffled is this.

9. Disparaging Yourself Along with Others

Even if you're disparaging yourself alongside the subject, it is prohibited. It doesn't matter if you look even worse than the subject, and it doesn't matter if you mention yourself first. Rabbi Pliskin gives some nice examples:

Ben and I both shoplifted when we were younger.
Nobody in our group studies properly.

It is also forbidden to speak Lashon Hara about yourself.

I didn't think that this was wrong. Also I was hoping that someone could explain this for me in more detail.

Moriah Ruth

[Deleted]

I am patiently waiting for someone to respond to my question of the paragraph that I shared so that I could understand what the statement is stating. Could someone give me more of an understanding please?

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

Mar 31, 2014 5:02:18 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

9. Disparaging Yourself Along with Others

Even if you're disparaging yourself alongside the subject, it is prohibited. It doesn't matter if you look even worse than the subject, and it doesn't matter if you mention yourself first. Rabbi Pliskin gives some nice examples:

Ben and I both shoplifted when we were younger.
Nobody in our group studies properly.

It is also forbidden to speak Lashon Hara about yourself.

I didn't think that this was wrong. Also I was hoping that someone could explain this for me in more detail.

Moriah Ruth

Disparaging yourself is simply talking bad about yourself, either to others or yourself. Especially when meant to sound like you're taking the high road when actually telling on someone else. "Ben and I both shoplifted" may sound good, but it still tells everyone else that Ben shoplifted.

There is also the positive vs. negative reinforcement issue with self-talk. "I'm such an idiot" reinforces the fact you are stupid in your mind when actually you just made a mistake.

There is the lesson oft told that it takes at least two witnesses in Jewish law to convict a person. We have an accuser always before God- ha satan. If you speak evil about someone, even yourself, you become the second witness standing with ha satan against that person before the eternal throne. Even if what you are saying is true, this is not a position you really want to be in.

Dan C

[Deleted]

Ok, I am totally not happy.

I went to respond back to you Alon. I had my thoughts all typed out and in order. Than I clicked the Create Post button. And guess what happened? My post went POOF. It done disappeared. Did you hear that? No you wouldn't hear that because it was my silent scream. Now I am

Oh well, shall we try this again.

Thank you Alon for responding back and I totally agree with you.

I understand that it is wrong to speak negatively and evil of oneself and of others. Also I understand that when one shares about their personal life or past with someone else, that it can bite them or come back at them. Say for example I shared my life story of what happened to me as a child and I told them what I used to do. Well, this can come back at me either through another gossiper or back biter or just simply someone out to get you. I understand all this.

What I am trying to understand is the statements one uses for themselves. Even if it is to minister to someone else to maybe witness to them or encourage them or to show how God works in our lives, etc.

For example, I state to someone that I used to steal and lie when I was younger. No one else was in that statement but me. And I would say that God delivered me from lying and stealing. How would this be considered being negative about oneself?

Another example, say someone asked me what we were doing at our bible study. And I stated something like this, "We no longer have bible study." And the other person asks why. And I state, "People were not showing an interest in learning or studying." Would this still be considered negative even though no names were used?

This is what I am trying to understand with regards to statements like I used and the above example. I understand all the rest when speaking negative about oneself and others. I understand about being critical towards others and gossip and backbiting, etc.

I needed understanding with the examples and how this would become Lashon Hara.

Moriah Ruth

[jimmie]

Mar 31, 2014 5:02:18 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

Ben and I both shoplifted when we were younger.
Nobody in our group studies properly.

Moriah Ruth

Lev 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

It all depends no how you say it. If you are trying to restore yourself/or someone else, then it is okay. If you are trying to destroy yourself or someone else then it is sin.

[alon]

Apr 9, 2014 3:31:19 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... What I am trying to understand is the statements one uses for themselves. Even if it is to minister to someone else to maybe witness to them or encourage them or to show how God works in our lives, etc.

Statements used to minister or witness are not lashon hara as long as you use discretion. For example, I've used things from my past to minister to others, however I left out anything that might identify my partner(s). And as believers there is always redemption, so as long as you've repented there's no problem.

As far as confession goes, you do not have to tell everyone what you've done. Confess it before God and to those you've harmed, and make amends if possible. After that I don't think it's anyone's business, unless you choose to share it to witness and as long as it won't further harm or embarrass anyone else involved.

For example, I state to someone that I used to steal and lie when I was younger. No one else was in that statement but me. And I would say that God delivered me from lying and stealing. How would this be considered being negative about oneself?

Then, according to what I just said, I think you are OK.

Another example, say someone asked me what we were doing at our bible study. And I stated something like this, "We no longer have bible study." And the other person asks why. And I state, "People were not showing an interest in learning or studying." Would this still be considered negative even though no names were used?

That would be wrong because it makes a judgment about their motives, which you cannot know unless they all told you "we have no interest in learning or studying." And even if you did know this, telling others about it wouldn't be right. I'd restate it that no one was coming to the study. That is a fact, not opinion, and makes no judgment as to why they were not coming.

The exception might be if you had asked them for the purposes of evaluating the ministry and were to report the findings to whoever you are accountable to, say a board or a ministries director. But these are persons held accountable for their confidence, and who are responsible for using resources, including volunteers time, wisely and appropriately.

The other obviously exceptional situation would be if you have knowledge that might prevent harm to the person or others. Say you have a friend who you were counseling about anger and suicidal tendencies. You see him making what appears to be a pipe bomb on a vest- I think I'd tell somebody- quickly!

Hope that helped. Generally just use good judgment and examine your motives before you speak and you'll probably be OK.

Dan C

[Deleted]

Thank you Jimmie and Alon for explaining. I now understand. Blessings to you.

Moriah Ruth

[Questor]

Apr 9, 2014 7:00:04 GMT -8 alon said:

Apr 9, 2014 3:31:19 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... What I am trying to understand is the statements one uses for themselves. Even if it is to minister to someone else to maybe witness to them or encourage them or to show how God works in our lives, etc.

Statements used to minister or witness are not lashon hara as long as you use discretion. For example, I've used things from my past to minister to others, however I left out anything that might identify my partner(s). And as believers there is always redemption, so as long as you've repented there's no problem.

As far as confession goes, you do not have to tell everyone what you've done. Confess it before God and to those you've harmed, and make amends if possible. After that I don't think it's anyone's business, unless you choose to share it to witness and as long as it won't further harm or embarrass anyone else involved.

For example, I state to someone that I used to steal and lie when I was younger. No one else was in that statement but me. And I would say that God delivered me from lying and stealing. How would this be considered being negative about oneself?

Then, according to what I just said, I think you are OK.

Another example, say someone asked me what we were doing at our bible study. And I stated something like this, "We no longer have bible study." And the other person asks why. And I state, "People were not showing an interest in learning or studying." Would this still be considered negative even though no names were used?

That would be wrong because it makes a judgment about their motives, which you cannot know unless they all told you "we have no interest in learning or studying." And even if you did know this, telling others about it wouldn't be right. I'd restate it that no one was coming to the study. That is a fact, not opinion, and makes no judgment as to why they were not coming.

The exception might be if you had asked them for the purposes of evaluating the ministry and were to report the findings to whoever you are accountable to, say a board or a ministries director. But these are persons held accountable for their confidence, and who are responsible for using resources, including volunteers time, wisely and appropriately.

The other obviously exceptional situation would be if you have knowledge that might prevent harm to the person or others. Say you have a friend who you were counseling about anger and suicidal tendencies. You see him making what appears to be a pipe bomb on a vest- I think I'd tell somebody- quickly!

Hope that helped. Generally just use good judgment and examine your motives before you speak and you'll probably be OK.

Dan C

There is something that many people do...darn near everyone I know has done it, and it is to put themselves down...even if they are talking to YHVH.

To speak badly of yourself is forbidden so that you do not encourage the Adversary to make use of a door you are opening to your mind...the fact that you believe yourself to be less than righteous, when Yehoshua makes you righteous. It takes away your trust in Yehoshua when you speak badly of who you are.  In a way, you are murmuring against G-d in an indirect way, by speaking ill of one of the elect!

If it is in the past tense, it is not a problem, as in saying, "I have been such an idiot!" I have said that a lot, but I have been an idiot...in how I have thought, felt, spoken, acted, and written...I have been guilty of all sin in the past...there is not one commandment I have not broken in thought or in fact. And that is true of all men, though they might believe otherwise.  We get better at not sinning year by year by practicing righteousness, but having once broken the commandments, not having the sacrificial system to purchase redemption with a blood offering, (and no sacrificial system in future can be restored in G-d's eyes, because Yehoshua has replaced that system) puts us under a curse if it were not for our salvation in Yehoshua.

But I am working hard not to speak evil of myself even to myself. And yes, I fail, because I am human, but Abba forgives me when I ask for forgiveness. I have gotten better these last years, but it is still a struggle. I know I am a babbling three year old in spiritual terms, and what I say can damage me, for life and death are in the power of the tongue, and my tongue has been, and often still is loose and my lips unclean.

So, to say, "I am soooo stupid!" is lashon hara, and we do it plentifully, and without thinking. So watch not only what you say of others, and to others, but what you say of yourself.

It's downright dangerous to speak wrongly of yourself.

[Deleted]

You are so right Questor.

I am a guilty party myself for putting myself down within my own thinking, however more so before a Holy Creator. Many a time I have called myself dumb, idiot, etc, when I am talking to God about how I feel about a situation or what I have done that was totally wrong. Or I get down on myself.

My thinking is if one were to speak evil of oneself then they are speaking evil of God's creation. Even if it is in prayer with Him. So thank you for pointing this out Questor.

Moriah Ruth