Child Training

[nasah]

Vegangirl,

Thanks for sharing your discipline practices with me. I find that what works for one child or parent will not work for another. Some of the things you do are useful, and some of that would not be practical for me. I have more children than you, and therefore i do not have time to stand there and wait for my child to count out 100 kernels of rice. My oldest would throw a fit that would take 4 hours before she was reduced to tears and another 2 hours before she would have it counted. I have other children to tend to.

I tried taking things she enjoys away, but she isn't phased for too long, as she quickly finds something else to do.
I stood her into a corner, and she'd disassemble my house in that area before long.

Perhaps those techniques will help when my children are older, but as of yet this would only lead to more frustration on both ends.

You know, when i look at God and the many "children" He had to discipline, He i think had to come up with something that worked quick and was severe enough to cause many to reconsider their actions.

I also find that just by disciplining the eldest, i automatically am disciplining the younger ones by example. It's but true, it works that way.

Parenting and disciplining is one thing i believe should never be mainstreamed to the extend that it has been. No child and parent relationship is the same, and no two cases/parent/children need the same measures, when it comes down to the individual household/child.

However when it comes to a whole group, certain things/rules/discipline should/needs to be the same. You can only tailor things so far before showing favoritism, and creating a worse scenario.

I have been working on balancing this particular aspect and i see that it's very hard especially when you have a child who absolutely refuses to hear instructions and fails so often that you feel you have to scrape some praise off the floor to make that child feel better. Whereas another one of mine is naturally sweet and ready to please so that it seems i'm favoring her over the other, because it's easier to give her the time of my day.

Sigh, parenting isn't easy, and in the end each of us is individually accountable for what we have done or not. This is a job more important and difficult than any other job anyone could ever hold.

I see a God capable of wrath as well as Love, so i see two ends of outcome. I also see a God full of patience and Grace, but this Grace IMO does not nullify discipline which could appear severe.

Anyway, this certainly is a touchy subject even within the Believing circle.

Shalom,
nasah

[vegangirl]

nasah

yeah I think its a touchy subject with everyone I think..

I love parenting and its so easy for me..

I hear people all the time saying its hard and there teens are bad...

I love it all .. I loved it so much when my kids were babys..

Here I was! a straight Edged puck had a baby . and my little daughter came a long I could not let her Go ..
I still can't I call them my babys all the time.. both of them

My daughter tells me I am not a Doll any more an I should let her pick out her own clothes an I still baby talk them some times its really hard to let go.. I am not dealing with it very well. :*(

PS no longer a punk... but I am still straight edged..

Peace and love..

[Mark]

Hi Bri'gette,

On another thread you posed confusion as to why folks couldn't understand why Sabbath was so important and continued to worship in Sunday. I think that that, in a broader sense, the answer is here. The way they are doing things seems to be working just fine. There is no incentive to change. Why not eat pork or shellfish? It doesn't seem to make us any less healthy. It doesn't appear to have any negative affect on our spiritual condition (because they've never experienced true intimacy; but at best hyped emotion).

If we believe that the Bible is true and that God's ways are truly the best ways, then our own experiences can't trump God's Word.

Now, you're absolutely right that someone hits their child because the child is annoying them or out of anger, this is completely contrary to the love of Adonai. In fact, the book of Proverbs lays out very specific conditions that requires spanking: open rebellion, utter carelessness, and wicked behavior. Now, I have a lot of children and their personalities run the gammut. There are a couple that visit "the board of education" on a fairly routine basis. There are at least a couple others who have possibly been spanked twice in their lives (and those times were probably not biblically administered). I'm not suggesting by any means that if you're not spanking your children then you are not obeying GOd's commands concerning your children.

At the same time, the way that you have presented your case is very troubling for me because it appears to be teaching your family that you're in charge, not God.

Paul says to train up your child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. If I am the final authority for the discipline of my children, then, at best, I'm training up my children in the nurture and admonition of me. The result is that, in the long term, my kids would see themselves as free-agents once outside of the direct control of their parent(s). "I had to do what Dad said when he was here; but he's not here now; so I can do whatever I want." If the Word of God is not instilled as the greater and binding authority over our lives, then we instill in them a dormant sense of anarchy that can potentially cause a lot of harm before they come to the place of understanding this principle for themselves.

[nasah]

Now, I have a lot of children and their personalities run the gamut. There are a couple that visit "the board of education" on a fairly routine basis. There are at least a couple others who have possibly been spanked twice in their lives.....

I hear you, my girls are totally different, like day and night. I don't consider them bad children, though i consider my oldest to be careless, and stubborn by her nature. My heart worries about her all the time and i'm fearful of what may become of her if her ways don't change. And i'm not saying she's evil in her heart, but very hard to train up.

I cannot imagine anyone saying parenting is easy, i constantly reflect on what i do, and ask myself if it was the right thing, if i could improve, etc. I compare to God and His word, and i find myself woefully lacking, and asking Him to guide me, and teach me so i may do the right thing.
I love my kids, and i want to do right by them. Which means i have to try hard.
Perhaps it comes easier to some than to others.
I was a single child with no brothers or sisters, and i was spoiled, and had no examples of mothering/parenting in the right way.

My mother was loving, though not godly, my dad was hardly ever present, and hardly godly at all, and the only stability i knew were my grandparents, who loved God, but did not have the same conclusions i came to in the course of my life.

I have found that love by God's definition is not what most call love here in this world based on some mushy emotions. I have found that what i considered to be love is far from His standard.

I'm having to learn all over again what true love is, and that it's a verb, something you do, not just feel. Sometimes one doesn't feel love but does it anyways.
God's love is constant, and mine isn't. It's far from perfect.

I think that's the essence of the difference between different groups of Believers. Those that say they love God with all their hearts and believe they are doing everything His way while they continue to trample the Sabbath saying that Love trumps the Sabbath. Yet i see the Sabbath as the epitome of Love, and truth. It's part of conforming to His image and allowing oneself to be shaped by His understanding rather than one's own. I think that's actually in essence the same as what Mark was saying is the root problem in his previous post.

And i say none of that with any arrogance but rather with a good amount of sadness in my heart and worry for those who are simply missing out IMO.
"Lean not unto your own understanding...... "

Shalom,
nasah

[Mark]

It isn't without significance that the Shema, the centerpiece of Hebraic prayer, demands that we train our children according to :

And you shall teach them (them being all the elements of ) diligently unto your children, and speak of them when you sit in your house, when walk by the way, when you retire and when you arise (Deut. 6:7)... affectively, every waking moment should be a training session for your children.

The word shah-nan is translated "teach diligently". It literally means "to pierce". It is most commonly used in reference to effectiveness of sharp arrows. In this context, the mandate is to drive the message home.

It is significant that this command of the Shema is repeated to us in Deuteronomy 11:19; but the word for teach is the word "lah-mad" which means to teach; but the method of teaching is by use of corporal punishment. Specifically, lah-mad is referring to a goad, which is a farming tool used to guide one's ox by stabbing the animal in the soft fleshy portion of the back of the leg, just above the hoof. This is a reference Messiah used in His encounter with Paul, stating, "Saul, Saul, it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." (Acts 9:5).

In Deuteronomy 21:18-21, the people are commanded that if their child is stubborn and rebellious, they are to take him to the city gates and stone him to death. Oh gee, so the end of the Law is love out of a pure heart, huh? Absolutely! This command is not so much a prescription as an incentive to declare to the parent that diligent training is that important. It is to say emphatically that failure on the part of the parents to train their children with all diligence is to decide between either the destruction of the child or destruction of society.

It is a reflection of our reverance toward God's Word that biblical child training is instilled in our congregations: that it is a taboo subject, and each family is left to their own devices when the Scriptures speak so clearly.

[vegangirl]

Mark.

Well really eating pork does have a negative affect on peoples bodies...
I can't find where I talked about the sabbath on Saturday..

A lot of things were deleted it looks pretty wired, how can I get it back and my stars back., I am NOT new I should be more then a full memeber about now.

I still have to work on some Saturdays, does it suck yes. What do I do? I am looking for a new job also.. Not very hard but I will be ...My kids start school next week and there going to a school that believe in the Sabbath also its wonderful and they don't eat meat there either whoo hoo..
I can't wait to meet more people that take Sabbath to there hearts...

Mark: I have not been a believer for very long and I have been in so many churches they all teach different we have ONE God and there all different teahcings.. Some times its hard to believe we all serve the same God..
an I am still a little hippy! in some of my ways.. I didn't even know spanking is in the bible, I really didn't see it that way in there.. I didn't even see it in the new testament .. but I am still reading it.
Being on this forum I am learning a lot. I don't know if I will spank my kids I will pray I will never have to..and I think I might not.. is God mad at me now? I guess I can shake them a little and yell some.. This helps my kids believe me.. u know that I have leaved a very clean holiness life for them an I told them I have an I do everything! So they know to be good and listen to mommy..

They can only fight 3 times a day.. thats it after that its over! I will not hear of it at all.
They they listen and we move on...

ya know if they didn't listen I really would not know how to handle it ... I am always getting my way because I am mommy and Dad is not around hes in Guam and remarrid and never calls!! Thats a big reason why they listen to me.. because they see how I am and that i do everything I know as a mommy to do... Ok I am almost off work.. )

Peace&love.. bri'gette,.

[Mark]

First, I would not recommend changing the discipline regime with a 13 and 15 year old to include corporal punishment. You'll likely get the police involved. My experience is that, in most cases, when a child gets to be about twelve years old, he or she can recognize the natural consequences of his or her decisions- most offenses , at this point, are self-punishing.

I would recommend that you sit down with your kids and remind them that you are learning to live in a way that is obedient to God's Word- that it is trustworthy because He is trustworthy.

Read Ephesians 6:4 with them. Commit to them that you want to raise them as not just being under the authority of you as their mother but as being responsible to the commands of God and acountable to Him and to each other. Work together to remind each other to work on specific areas to walk more godly.

Should we yell at our children? Proverbs 15:1 says that a soft answer turns away wrath; but harsh words stir up anger. I'm not trying to pick on you; but just give you an example. As you pray and learn the Scriptures, invite your kids into that process to hold you accountable to the things you are learning. Ask them (they are old enough) to give you areas that they feel Adonai is working in their lives. Grow together with your kids in your relationship with Him- not being the source of truth and rule yourself, but recognizing Adonai as filling that role for both you and them.

[vegangirl]

Mark: : )

As you can see I said I guess I could shake them a little or yell some... This don't mean I will. I just seen everyone was big on spanking there kids because the bibke says so. So I really didn't know what to say.

If your not trying to pick on me then what? I am just asking for fun I have noticed people say stuff like that a lot .. oh I'm not trying to judge u But! .. ya know.. .. I really don't think your picking on me at all.. : ) I really like what you have to say.. I have learn some stuff from u also..

I am doing wondering with my kids do u know how I know I am? EVERY Where we go I am always told how wonderful of a family we look and your kids are wonderful..

I don't even know these people at all. This is with the grace of Adoni his love is in us and I believe people can see it.

I know I am doing every thing right with them.. Learning is a life time experience so until we die we will learn together.

Peace ...

[Mark]

You may have noticed that I can be somewhat obnoxious. One lady asked me at the grocery store how do I get my children to be so well behaved. I said, "I beat them with a stick."

On another occassion, I was at a meeting with my three-year-old son and was surprised to be invited to speak for the next half an hour or so. My son sat quietly next to this older gentleman through the entire service and afterward the man commented on how well behaved the boy was. I said, "That's because I told him you'd break both of his arms if he moved."

Neither of those stories are exactly true. We do use a rod for corporal punishment, when necessary because a swat with the hand on the behind can do a lot of damage to a child's back. Also, having to stop whatever I'm doing to go find the rod makes the situation a training event, not simply an expression of my frustration. Finally, I don't intend to hurt the child, just give them a negative motivator to remember what is right and wrong. The pain stimulus is to instill a memory point. We remember things that hurt and why. Often, particularly with the younger ones, I will rap my hand a couple of times first so that I really know how much pressure (how much pain) I am going to be causing. Here is a link to the American Colleg eof Pediatrics view on spanking

www.acpeds.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=1681604821&CONTEXT=cat&cat=10040<br>


It's a little , and definately a commentary on our culture, that the discussion on child training is reduced to whether or not we spank our children. That's sort of like, standing behind a new employee at his desk and saying, "Here's your training: start doing something and when you do something wrong I'll hit you."

Scripture gives us a number of incredible tools and devices for training our children. Not the least of these are the moedim, or biblical celebrations. Are there more thoughts in maybe a more positive direction?

[vegangirl]

I think you're great Mark! ... I can some times think I am perfect lol as I know I am not!

I do have one question? Why 9 kids? Is that one of the commandment be fruitful and multiply? Does that apply to everyone?

[Mark]

How do we apply this passage to our discussion?

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
(Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

[vegangirl]

Well thank God for his grace..

[Mark]

I hadn't realized that I had left this with an open question for quite so long. Please, put down your rocks. The first thing that we need to notice is that the command requires both the mom and the dad to agree that such drastic action is necessary. It diesn't come from the community. It comes from the parents.

Second, there are a lot of laws that are put out there without any intension of executing them. This is an extreme measure put in place to establish how important it is train your children from their earliest childhood. It is to say that failure for us to make a priority of training our children well is equal to killing them... it's that important.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
(Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

[Mark]

Our congregation has a "family integrated" service. This means that there is no separate service for children. They all participate with us, or crawl under the chairs or run and play in the other room, or color the picture provided in our bulletin. This strategy is based upon Scripture:

Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
(Deuteronomy 31:12-13)

We have found that kids don't need to be talked down to; rather they need to be respected and appreciated as part of our community. The result that we have seen as they grow older is that these kids have a profound sense of depth to their understanding of Scripture and participate with us as theological peers at a very early age.

[fireshifter]

I just found this, but a good friend of mine, an associate pastor at Beth Simchat Hamashiach in the Phoenix area, has studied deeply into child discipline and has an excellent website... www.aolff.org where she goes into the dissection of the Old Testament discipline, including the "rod" verse.

While I know that not all would agree with her, her steps for handling discipline with young children have been invaluable to me and I do feel like my children are getting a very clear view of God through my journey into grace-based discipline.

Jen D.