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Post by Blake on Feb 22, 2005 2:38:10 GMT -8
I found this enlightening....
"and they love the best places at the feasts, and the best seats in the congregations, and the greetings in the market-places, and to be called by men 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi,' for One is your Rabbi, the Messiah, and you are all brothers. (ISR Mattithyahu 23:6-8)
This surprised me. I guess it is better to call the leader of the congregation the Ra'ah (shepherd) rather than Rabbi.
Just a tidbit I found I wanted to share.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 22, 2005 17:18:31 GMT -8
Ah, we midrashed on this in my hermenutics class at Yeshiva.
The conclusion we reached was that Yeshua must have been referring to that specific situation.
He had just finished criticizing the soferim & P'rushim for their hypocrisy, therefore one could conclude (as we did) that when he said "Do not be called Rabbi," he was referring to that in the context of being hypocritical.
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Post by Blake on Feb 22, 2005 18:11:11 GMT -8
Ah, we midrashed on this in my hermenutics class at Yeshiva. The conclusion we reached was that Yeshua must have been referring to that specific situation. He had just finished criticizing the soferim & P'rushim for their hypocrisy, therefore one could conclude (as we did) that when he said "Do not be called Rabbi," he was referring to that in the context of being hypocritical. Hm... To me the clearest and most obvious interpretation is that the title "Rabbi" or "Father" it brings about putting a certain teacher on a higher level than others because "Rabbi" means My Master or Milord (hrab-bee' Strongs #2962) does it not? I believe Messiah was saying do not elevate anyone among us as to avoid creating a division between the laypeople and clergy for all believers are under the Priesthood of Moschiach. I believe for the leaders of synagougues Ra'ah is better suited. Note this passage: Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as shepherds and teachers, It says nothing of some being called for Rabbis, simply as teachers. I believe the term Rabbi is part of a man-made tradition carried over to many Messianic groups. Just my thoughts..... |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 22, 2005 19:07:04 GMT -8
Hm... To me the clearest and most obvious interpretation is that the title "Rabbi" or "Father" it brings about putting a certain teacher on a higher level than others because "Rabbi" means My Master or Milord (hrab-bee' Strongs #2962) does it not? I believe Messiah was saying do not elevate anyone among us as to avoid creating a division between the laypeople and clergy for all believers are under the Priesthood of Moschiach. I believe for the leaders of synagougues Ra'ah is better suited. Note this passage: Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as shepherds and teachers, It says nothing of some being called for Rabbis, simply as teachers. I believe the term Rabbi is part of a man-made tradition carried over to many Messianic groups. Just my thoughts..... I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your conclusion. Rabbi actually translates into English as "Teacher," not "Master." Adon, or Adonai translates as lord or master. I mean, you can see how this verse could easily be taken out of context. For those who know hebrew, they could contend, "well Yeshua said that no man should be called Rabbi, if that's the case, then we won't give anyone the title of "Teacher." But this is not the case. I really don't believe that Yeshua intended it to be interpreted that way. If that were so, then why would Rav Sh'aul include that title in the 4 offices of ministry that you quoted in Ephesians? |
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Post by Blake on Feb 22, 2005 20:18:18 GMT -8
My friend, "Rabbi" does not mean teacher...
Rabbi
(Hebrew, "my master") an authorized teacher of the classical Jewish tradition after the fall of the second Temple. The role of the rabbi has changed considerably throughout the centuries. Traditionally, rabbis serve as the legal and spiritual guides of their congregations and communities. The title is conferred after considerable study of traditional Jewish sources. This conferral and its responsibilities is central to the chain of tradition in Judaism. (Some online dictionary)
Rabbi
Rabbi. A title of respect signifying master, teacher, given by the Jews to their doctors and teachers, and often addressed to our Lord. Mat_23:7-8; Mat_26:25; Mat_26:49; Mar_9:6; Mar_11:21; Mar_14:45; Joh_1:38; Joh_1:49; Joh_3:2; Joh_3:26; Joh_4:31; Joh_6:25; Joh_9:2; Joh_11:8.
Another form of the title was Rabboni. Joh_20:16. The titles were used with different degrees of honor; the lowest being rab, master; then rabbi, my master; next, rabban, our master; and greatest of all, Rabboni, my great master. (Smith's Bible Dictionary)
Rabbi
My master, a title of dignity given by the Jews to their doctors of the law and their distinguished teachers. It is sometimes applied to Christ (Mat_23:7, Mat_23:8; Mar_9:5 (R.V.); Joh_1:38, Joh_1:49; Joh_3:2; Joh_6:25, etc.); also to John (Joh_3:26). (Easton's Illustrated Bible Dictonary)
Rabbi
rab´ī, rab´i (רבּי, rabbī; ῥαββί, rhabbí, or ῥαββεί, rhabbeí): A term used by the Jews of their religious teachers as a title of respect, from רב, rabh, “great,” so “my great one” (compare Latin magister), once of masters of slaves, but later of teachers (Mat_23:7); therefore translated by διδάκαλος, didáskalos, “teacher” (Mat_23:8; Joh_1:38; compare Joh_1:49). In the King James Version frequently rendered “Master” (Mat_26:25, Mat_26:49; Mar_9:5; Mar_11:21; Mar_14:45; Joh_4:31; Joh_9:2; Joh_11:8). John the Baptist (Joh_3:26), as well as Christ, is addressed with the title (Joh_1:49; Joh_6:25), both by disciples and others. Jesus forbade its use among His followers (Mat_23:8). Later (Galilean) form of same, RABBONI (which see). See TALMUD for Rabbinical literature. (ISBE)
Rabbi does mean "my master" not teacher brother. Such high titles of repsect which were used by slaves to their masters I will not give to anyone but my God because He is my only master.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 23, 2005 0:08:41 GMT -8
I think both of you have made valid points. In this case (as in many cases) the Hebrew does not settle the issue fully. Context is king. What is the context of the passage? Let's take a look... "But they do all their works to be noticed by men; for they make broad their tefillin, and lengthen the tzit-tziyot of their garments.
"And they love the first place at banquets, and the first seats in the synagogues,
"and greetings in the market places, and being called by men, 'Rabbi.'
"But do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is Your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
"And do not call anyone on Earth your father; for One is your Father, He Who is in Heaven.
"And do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, the Messiah.
"But the greatest among you shall be your servant.Mat.23:5-11 What is being stated here? Can we not refer to our fathers with respect with the title of "father"? Shall we not refer to someone whom has taught us Hebrew as a "teacher"? Shall we not refer to the President of the United States as the "leader" thereof? I don't believe that this is what Messiah is communicating. Messiah is saying that our pride should not take the place of His and His Father's rightful roles. We are only teacher as much as we teach others what The Teacher has taught us. We are only fathers as much as we raise our children to love The Father. We are only leaders as much as we lead people to The Leader. In this sense, we are to be servants doing the will of the father with whatever talents and skills he has entrusted to us. We can do nothing of ourselves, and when we presume otherwise and encourage people to look to us instead of Messiah....this is where we error. Being called Rabbi, teacher, father, leader is by no means breaking  . And, this is the definition of sin. Messiah wants us to stop sinning. Messiah is not simply disputing the use of mere titles. Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by alon on Jun 14, 2016 12:33:36 GMT -8
In addition to what Chizuk Emunah and R Reuel has said, I’d like to point out this as an excellent example of why we should be careful using Christian resources. Most of us are completely dependent on using references like Strong’s when interpreting either Hebrew or Greek words. This was a Hebrew word used in the Greek translation of Mattityahu because in this instance Christianity wanted to discredit the Jews through their Rabbis. Strong’s, being extremely influenced by Catholicism, has a very anti-Semitic definition:
Strong’s G4461 ῥαββί rhabbi hrab-bee' Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix; my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi.
Thayer is a little closer to the mark when they add it is a title to honor their teachers:
G4461 ῥαββί rhabbi Thayer Definition: 1) my great one, my honourable sir 2) Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)
Vines does pretty well until they get to the subject text of this thread:
Vines: Rabbi- from rab, primarily denoting “master” in contrast to a slave; this with the added pronomial suffix signified “my master” and was a title of respect by which teachers were addressed. … in the NT th word is used as a courteous title of address. It is applied to Christ … to John the Baptist … . In Mat 23:78 Christ forbids His desciples to covet or use it.
"Or use" it is wrong, as has been demonstrated above.
Webster’s Hebrew Dictionary defines contemporary use of the term Rabbi as meaning the religious head of a group or community.
Oxford Dictionaries defines Rabbi: rab·bi [ˈraˌbī] Jewish scholar or teacher, especially one who studies or teaches Jewish law. A person appointed as a Jewish religious leader.
Dictionary.com: Rabbi rab-bi [rab-ahy] the chief religious official of a synagogue, trained usually in a theological seminary and duly ordained, who delivers the sermon at a religious service and performs ritualistic, pastoral, educational, and other functions in and related to his or her capacity as a spiritual leader of Judaism and the Jewish community.
1. a title of respect for a Jewish scholar or teacher.
2. a Jewish scholar qualified to rule on questions of Jewish law.
3. any of the Jewish scholars of the 1st to 6th centuries a.d. who contributed to the writing, editing, or compiling of the Talmud
And from the Jewish Virtual Library: The word rabbi originates from the Hebrew meaning "teacher."
The term has evolved over Jewish history to include many roles and meanings. Today it usually refers to those who have received rabbinical ordination and are educated in matters of halacha (Jewish law). They are the ones knowledgeable enough to answer halachic questions. Most countries have a chief rabbi they rely on to settle halachic disputes.
The connotations of “master” in the title probably come from the Jewish line of thinking that their Rabbi is always right. Disciples of a teacher in Yeshua’s time literally walked in the footsteps of their Rabbi and listened to every word he said. He was the undisputed leader of their sect or synagogue. Even today Rav S has said more than once the problem he has teaching Jewish converts is they believe that everything they were told by their previous Rabbi was true. Conversely, like Blake demonstrates here Christian converts believe they, not their religious leadership, are always right. As a Baptist PK I can say that by and large that is true of the Christians.
However the focus of Christian translators on the more obscure meaning “master” and all but completely ignoring the more substantive meaning “teacher” is a blatant anti-Semitic slur. Then to say “call no man Rabbi” means them evil Jews are at it again, disobeying Christ" … well, now my friends WE are them “evil Jews” because we have Rabbis- teachers and religious leaders, and we practice a Jewish form of religion. Worse, we accept Yeshua as HaMoshiach. So we must be double-evil. This is another topic we need to understand well, because it is used against us all the time. And we need to know that there are other, better alternatives to reference materials like Strong's. Otherwise they will successfully argue from authority (they looked it up in Strong's!) and so defeat our arguments. It is also extremely important we know how to do as R Reuel and argue the contextual meaning of scripture. We can overcome most if not almost all the Christian doctrinal arguments by simply looking at scripture in context. They have cherry-picked so much of scripture and built false theologies on them that this method alone, if we can get them to look with open minds, will defeat their whole religious base.
Dan C
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. And, this is the definition of sin. Messiah wants us to stop sinning. Messiah is not simply disputing the use of mere titles.
