ORAL LAW

[cindi]

HOW AS MESSIANIC BELIEVERS, ARE WE TO APPROACH
ORAL LAW? IS JUST GOOD READING MATERAL OR SHOULD WE INCLUDE IT INTO OUR BELIEFS. I'M READING A COMMENTARY BY AVI BEN MORDECHAI, AND HE THINKS ORAL LAW IN NOT VALID. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN YOU THOUGHTS .

SHABBAT SHALOM

CINDI

[q27]

Shabbat Shalom Cindi

Excellent question - one which I have pondered - not that I am any where near equipped to answer - I am interested how others would answer your Q.

Even as I write I can only speculate that the words of Yeshua, in fact all the Tanakh, were initally in oral form and it was decades later that anything was committed to writing.

Blessing all in His name

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Cindi,

I personally believe that oral can be beneficial as long as it actually assists you in keeping . But, if one insists on keeping all of the oral body of law as found in works such as the Talmud and Mishnah, than we must reject Yeshua as Messiah...so my answer is to take oral as possible good advice on how to keep , but just as everything...test it by the scriptures to see whether it is true, or not.

Blessings in Yeshua,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

As always my advice would be to test what you learn against Scripture and see if it stands up to the scrutiny.

I would however, like to add that we do see that Yeshua agreed with Pharasaical halacha (Oral interpretation of the ) on many occasions. Most notably of which being Matt. 23:23.

[q27]

Shalom

Let me see if I've got this right.

In Matt 23 Yeshua confronts the P'rushim and teachers with their interpretations of the - that is, the Talmud. So, Yeshua is not suggesting (ie. the 'Law') is questionable - just the interpretations put on the by those who then make keeping such a burden. Am I somewhere near the mark here?

[Chizuk Emunah]

Not necessarily.

Take a closer look at Matt. 23:23:
Woe to you, teachers and P'rushim, you hypocrites! You tithe a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin, but you have neglected the more important matters of the —g'vurah (judgement), chesed (mercy) and emunah (faithfulness). You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

The highlighted portion deserves special attention. Yeshua was in fact saying that they should do both while neglecting either. His main point of criticism was not in what they were doing, but in how they were doing it.

Here's a link evidencing Yeshua's connection to the Talmud (as it was the P'rushim who wrote it): Yeshua & the Talmud

[q27]

Thank you Netzar Y'hudi.

And, Yes, I agree with you concerning Matt 23:23 – But I would go further. The next verse (Matt 23:24) ‘Blind guides! – straining out a gnat, meanwhile swallowing a camel’. In other words – while busy paying attention to the minutiae of the Law the P’rushim neglected the need to act out that Law with compassion and mercy. The point I think is critical.

It is apparent that Mattityahu thought so too! He was highlighting the fact that Yeshua was drawing attention to the end results of acting within the strict legalistic defines of the Law (and here I include and the Talmud) – and those results are recorded is Matt 23: 35 ‘… on you will fall the guilt for all the innocent blood that has ever been shed on earth’. This is pretty heavy stuff. Yeshua was not mincing words here as historical events eventually proved.

Earlier, in Matt 12:7 Yeshua draws attention the prophet Hoshea who at 6:6 says ‘For what I desire is mercy, not sacrifices, knowledge of God more than burnt offerings’. I read here that it of no use making offerings and sacrifices to G-d solely because one is following – something more is required – a greater knowledge of G-d and what it is that G-d is trying to get through to His people – compassion and mercy – the very thing that the sacrifice is designed to illustrates – Adonai’s great love, and mercy.

The point – it is not possible to expect to remain the recipient of G-d’s mercy if I do not display that same quality, or given my continual failings, at least try - a point that Sh’aul was at pains trying to make clear – solely keeping the Law leads to death. (And, one which Christianity continues to misread).

I cannot keep to Go-d’s law, no matter how hard I might try – that is why I will always need His infinite mercy – that is why I need G-d. Suggesting that I could keep to the Law actually places me above G-d - which I think is what Matt 23 is all about - pride.

But, as always, I'm open to correction.

Shalom

[Chizuk Emunah]

solely keeping the Law leads to death

But how can that be the case if the is life? (Mishlei/Proverbs 13:14)

I have come to a new understanding of Rav Sh'aul. Whenever he uses the term "ma'aseh (translated as works of the Law)", he is in fact using a catchphrase used by his opponents. Throughout the Dead Sea Scrolls the term "ma'aseh " is used very frequently, and in that context it is used to describe those who believe they can earn their salvation through strict adherence to .

I read here that it of no use making offerings and sacrifices to G-d solely because one is following

Ah, but you have misunderstood my friend. For what Hosea is communicating, and what Yeshua was teaching, was that it there was no purpose in offering a sacrifice as required by , if you did not first repent for what you had done (ie...the reason for you to make the offering).

I cannot keep to G-d’s law, no matter how hard I might try – that is why I will always need His infinite mercy – that is why I need G-d. Suggesting that I could keep to the Law actually places me above G-d

But is that what the says?

Let's take a closer look:
D'varim 30:11-14

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

I think as humans (myself included), we persist in our mindset that the is just too hard for us to keep. But the itself says the exact opposite, it is not too hard to keep. Remember, out of the 613 mitzvot, only about 200 of those apply to non-priestly males living outside of Israel. And even with those, we sometimes stumble and fall, yet we continue to strive to do our absolute best to please HaShem Malkeinu.

Back to the matter at hand,
I think the point Yeshua is trying to make can be summed up in verse 28:
So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and Torahlessness.
The problem Yeshua was addressing was that they were doing all the right things for the wrong reasons.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Q27,

I cannot keep to Go-d’s law, no matter how hard I might try – that is why I will always need His infinite mercy – that is why I need G-d. Suggesting that I could keep to the Law actually places me above G-d - which I think is what Matt 23 is all about - pride.

Have you read Yechezkel (Ezek.) 36:26-27? Which particular commandment do you find impossible to keep? Can we do all things through Messiah except keep His Father's commandments (Phi.4:13)?

Shalom aleychem,

Reuel

[q27]

Shalom Netzar Y'hudi

You wrote " ... and in that context it is used to describe those who believe they can earn their salvation through strict adherence to ."

Exactly - That is the point I thought I made.

You wrote, "For what Hosea is communicating, and what Yeshua was teaching, was that it there was no purpose in offering a sacrifice as required by , if you did not first repent for what you had done (ie...the reason for you to make the offering).

Where does Hosea say this? Hosea was talking about 'mercy' and 'knowledge' - not repentance.

You wrote. " ... we sometimes stumble and fall"

Precisely - that's my point - keeping the law is impossible.

Again, you wrote, "The problem Yeshua was addressing was that they were doing all the right things for the wrong reasons.'

Again, that is the point I thought I was trying to make.

Shalom Reuel.

You wrote, "Which particular commandment do you find impossible to keep?"

Where would you like me, a sinner, to start?

As an example lets take travelling on the Sabbot. I live some 20 kilometers from a meeting place with other Messianics. If I 'travel' I break the rule about not travelling and if I start my vehicle I break a rule about ignition, ie lighting - there goes two at once. Of course, I could not travel but then I would not be taking part in any communion with other like-minded people.

The point I was endeavouring to make was that Yeshua was more concerned with whats going on inside rather than outward appearances. In other words - the means do not necessarily justify the end and keeping slavishly to rules and regulations may not be what G-d requires.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Where does Hosea say this? Hosea was talking about 'mercy' and 'knowledge' - not repentance.

I'm sorry my friend, I drew a correlation with another reference without even realizing it.

Let me explain:
Using the 2nd & 4th Rules of Hillel (Gzerah Sh'va & Biyan Av), I used an additional reference to draw on the true meaning of Hosea and Mattiyahu. That reference is Psalm 51:16. The context of Psalm 51 is David doing t'shuva after committing adultery with Bat Sheva.
Hosea 6:6 actually mirrors Psalm 51:16:
You do not delight in korbanot, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

For I desire chesed, and not korbanot,
and knowledge of Elohim rather than burnt offerings.

Therefore, using those rules of Hillel, I put forth the argument that the point Yeshua and Hosea were making is not that HaShem does not desire sacrifice (for if he did not, then it would not be included in the ), but that one must repent before offering the sacrifice, otherwise it would be of no effect.

Precisely - that's my point - keeping the law is impossible.

But I'm trying to tell you that it is not impossible to keep . Would HaShem give us anything that was impossible to do? I would argue that while it is very difficult to keep , it is not impossible.

Again, that is the point I thought I was trying to make.

Sorry, we're both saying the same thing, but using different ways to say it I guess.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Q27,

If I 'travel' I break the rule about not travelling and if I start my vehicle I break a rule about ignition, ie lighting - there goes two at once. Of course, I could not travel but then I would not be taking part in any communion with other like-minded people.

Where does the commandment say you cannot travel within your city? If you have to travel outside of your city, this is a sign that a fellowship/synagogue should be established in your area. Where does the commandment say you cannot start your car? You are thinking of Talmudic halachah and not what the Torah actually says. This is why the Pharisees where rebuked because they made Torah more burdensome than it actually is…the very point of this thread. As has already been demonstrated in scripture, keeping the Father’s Torah –is- possible. Whom should you believe, the scripture or someone telling you otherwise? If we find it impossible to keep any one commandment given to us by G’d, this is indication that we should go to the Father and ask for His Spirit to fill us so that we may have the power to accomplish His good and perfect will (Yechezkel/Ezek. 36:26-27).

The point I was endeavouring to make was that Yeshua was more concerned with whats going on inside rather than outward appearances. In other words - the means do not necessarily justify the end and keeping slavishly to rules and regulations may not be what G-d requires.

Yes, we must wash the inside of the cup first so that the outside will also be clean. But, notice if we truly wash the inside out…the outside –will- also be clean. But, as Yeshua stated, there is a difference between a truly clean outside and an outside that has only been whitewashed. But, it is indeed the good and perfect will of G’d for His people to follow all of His instruction (Torah). Truly, we can do all things through Messiah whom strengthens us (Phi.4:13)…including the keeping of His Father’s commandments.

Berachot b’Yeshua v’hazak, hazak, v’nit’chazek!
(Blessings in Yeshua and be strong, be strong, and be strengthened!),

Reuel

[Bat Yosef]

[font=Verdana]Matt 23:23 – But I would go further. The next verse (Matt 23:24) ‘Blind guides! – straining out a gnat, meanwhile swallowing a camel’


I saw this scripture discussed in earlier replies. When I was in Israel and discussing things with one of my Orthodox friends, he explained to me that the Oral Law is an expounding on the written Law. He gave the following example:

It is forbidden to swim on Shabbat. Swimming is not considered work and not actually the forbidden thing, but if one goes swimming, he will have to take a towel to dry himself. If one takes the towel to dry himself off then he may decide to wring it out. Drying off is not breaking Shabbat law but wringing out the towel is. Therefore the sages forbid swimming on Shabbat to keep people from breaking Shabbat Law.

This to me is what Yeshua was talking about when He was describing "straining at the gnat while swallowing the camel".

[q27]

Shalom my Brothers and thank you for your responses.

As I am only new to this path I appreciate your patience in constructing those responses. My object is not to raise arguments, but to better understand.

As I am active on the web I have read material that strongly suggests strict adherence to the Law - to the point where in on one site it was urged that the light bulb from the refrigerator be removed before the Sabbot in order that one would not offend the 'law' about 'kindling a fire'.

Let me add, that for those who choose to do so I have no problem, that is their choice. But to suggest that by not doing so one thereby breaks the Law is another extreme example of adhearing to the letter of the Law and not it's spirit.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

As I am only new to this path I appreciate your patience in constructing those responses. My object is not to raise arguments, but to better understand.

We are all on a similar path and learning as we go. Your way of learning is very similar to mine.

As I am active on the web I have read material that strongly suggests strict adherence to the Law - to the point where in on one site it was urged that the light bulb from the refrigerator be removed before the Sabbot in order that one would not offend the 'law' about 'kindling a fire'.

Let me add, that for those who choose to do so I have no problem, that is their choice. But to suggest that by not doing so one thereby breaks the Law is another extreme example of adhearing to the letter of the Law and not it's spirit.

I agree with you, does not literally restrict one from doing what is described above. But, much of the oral found in Talmud and Mishnah would have us not do many similar things as you have described. So, in other words, it wouldn't really be strict adhearance to the letter of as what you have described is by no means spelled out there. What is spelled out is not kindling a flame on Sabbath...so, don't start a camp fire, have everything prepared before Sabbath as it is spelled out. I personally believe that there is a difference between a flame and an electrical current, or a spark. observance is much more simple than most make it out to be.

Shalom chaver,

Reuel