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Post by NaildWithHim on Nov 10, 2005 23:25:24 GMT -8
Hi Reuel,
I have a great deal of respect for Pioneer really. We just yell at each other alot. LOL
Neither of us hold grudges, and we have been yelling at each other for over a year now. I've learned some things from him, and I can only hope he has learned a few things from me. If anything, we challenge each others beliefs. That's worth something isn't it?
Sorry it wafted over into your forum.
Rather than wade through a whole thread can you just answer my questions here?
Shalom
Naild
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Nov 11, 2005 10:35:35 GMT -8
Firestorm, Does your New Testament have the words immortal soul? I wrote this many years ago to poke fun at the Hellenistic belief. Was GODS only SON not told about our “IMMORTAL SOUL”? Isn’t it strange that the Son of GOD offered to give us a gift of what we already possessed? Immortality! Then, along comes Paul to tell us to put on the mantle we already wear. Immortality! How is it that God kept this secret from his Son and his favorite Apostle? Only to reveal it to those called “Christian”! I got this from my ownself, reading the NT. Here is a webpage that gives the whole story. mcdonald.southern.edu/bible/study/im-soul.htm There are folks out there who are offering a reward for anyone finding the words Immortal and Soul together in a sentance in the Bible. I for one will not serve a god that will burn my neighbor eternally, because I was so lazy and I wouldn't go tell him the good news! What is the second resurrection for? I believe it is to judge those who, Ro.2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. The Elect have already recieved their reward. As he said Mt 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Yeah, when the Saint go marching in) Doers of the Word of God |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Nov 11, 2005 11:29:46 GMT -8
I find myself starting to lean in this direction. It is difficult to believe that someone is condemned because they didn't know  . That would condemn many generations of people. This is definitely something to think about. |
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Pioneer
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Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Nov 11, 2005 12:46:05 GMT -8
I find myself starting to lean in this direction. It is difficult to believe that someone is condemned because they didn't know . That would condemn many generations of people. This is definitely something to think about. Is it something in the Texas Air, or is it the channeling of the same spirit? Ruach Ha Kodesh.  |
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Post by Firestorm on Nov 11, 2005 15:04:06 GMT -8
;D "Seriously though, is there something specific that you'd like to be addressed?" My answer is many things that would cover several threads. I recognise that this is a discussion forum and all sorts of things are bound to come up. I'm just getting the impression on this thread and on "Can Christians Be Saved?" and "Trinity" that as Messianic believers we're somehow obliged to say something's black just because the churches say it's white. With all due respect to everyone on here, this is starting to get silly.
How come we suddenly get to start deciding amongst themselves that certain Scriptures are somehow not valid because they don't quite concur with our particular line of reasoning? There are some Scriptures that I have problems with, but I accept that I'll just have to suck it up and have faith because God made the rules and it's just too bad if I don't like it.
If somebody comes up with a term to describe something in Scripture but Scripture doesn't contain that specific term, why does that always mean the concept is invalid? Yeshua said to the penitent thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. Since the thief's body died, that part of him was mortal, but since his soul went to be with Yeshua in Paradise that was the part of him that was immortal. Hence "immortal soul". I fail to comprehend what makes this so unreasonable.
I also find it interesting to note that Yeshua told the thief he would be with Him THAT DAY. To my mind this completely dismisses the concept that we go in to some sort of spiritual holding tank until the Resurrection. Our bodies will be resurrected, but as believers we'll enjoy the presence of the Lord until then.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Nov 11, 2005 18:41:35 GMT -8
Absolutely. This is the benefit of having a place to discuss different issues. You have to realize that as a lot of people are coming out of the Church after being involved with it for many years (sometimes their whole lives) and realizing that they'd been lied to about almost everything. Once the blinders come off, questions start being raised, some of which are very pertinent and need to be answered. This is reason why you will see threads like that. People have valid questions, and we provide an open non-threatening forum for those issues to be discussed. Again, people have different opinions as to what they believe is valid and what they believe is not valid. My personal position on this issue is that everything written within the Ketuvim Netzarim (Newer Testament) must stand up to the scrutiny of the , the Prophets, and the Writings. If, for whatever reason, it were not to withstand this scrutiny, then it should be unequivocally rejected. |
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Post by Rick on Nov 11, 2005 19:57:56 GMT -8
I would have to agree with your reasoning. One of the first things I was taught was that Scripture defines Scripture above all else. It should be the measure of all commentary, doctrine or dogma whether 'Jewish' or 'Christian'.
Are there any particular verses/writings that you would call into question?
Shabbat Shalom
Rick
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Post by NaildWithHim on Nov 12, 2005 10:16:09 GMT -8
That's walking on dangerous ground. I would be interested in hearing you expound on these comments. Why was the NT even written if everything is right there in the Hebrew Scriptures? This seems to be a popular theory today.
Shalom
Naild
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Post by messimom on Nov 12, 2005 10:37:09 GMT -8
Revelation Ch 10: 8-11 8: Then the voice which I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, "Go, take the scroll which is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land." 9: So I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll; and he said to me, "Take it and eat; it will be bitter to your stomach, but sweet as honey in your mouth." 10: And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it; it was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. 11: And I was told, "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." Now, I know this is probably very out of context, but I have to say, this is a fairly accurate description of people coming out of the church into a fuller understanding of our Messiah and Elohim. The new truths we learn are so sweet, and the evidences so tasty to the mouth. But as we begin to process our new reality and understanding of our own faith a lot of bitterness springs up. Once things begin to settle in, we all seem to go through a bitter period. And some get down right angry. All the half-truthes and lies they've been told by their "spiritual leaders". It is enough to make many sick to their stomachs. I hope I'm not being too presumptuous by assuming some things about you. If I am wrong here, please forgive me. I know Firestorm, that you are being blown away by some of the stuff you have read. And some of it sounds nearly heretical, but you have to remember that the only platform you have to judge it by is your current christian knowledge. You know that you would have never made it here had you not a feeling that there was more. Your pastor was missing something, you were thirsty, and he couldn't provide the water. So you found your own stream. And as all streams, as we begin to follow them to the source, you are bound to hit forks, where there are other streams, and they join, and there is more water, and so on, until you reach the source and it is a flowing river. And trying to lap water from a raging river is hard. That is where we are. So much truth, and only our hands to cup the water with. The awesome thing about "becoming Messianic" if you will, is that no one will discourage you from investigating. No one here is telling anyone that they have the truth and no one else does (if they do,  on them) because we all got here through investigating and we are all still learning. It is that personal quest for truth and wisdom that has brought all of us here today. So, I say-- don't take their word for it. Go read, study, and investigate. And if you pray and study, you will get there. It is a lot to take in at once. Go slow, and if you don't feel comfortable accepting some theory about the afterlife, do your own studying. Get your own resources, talk to knowledgeable people you have around you. You will find that this is even more fulfilling than coming to a message board and reading the end of someone else's research. You have stumbled onto a board with a lot of very knowledgeable, studied people(but I don't claim to be one of them ). Some of the people here have been studying for decades and are very far ahead of us newbies. So, read, and enjoy, but I know I'm not just going to sit back and be spoonfed, I had enough of that in Sunday school. Little did I know they used baby spoons, here they have heaping tablespoons.  Hang in there. Shalom in Yeshua HaMaschiach Messimom
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Post by messimom on Nov 12, 2005 10:47:57 GMT -8
Is this verse then pertaining just to the supernatural(ex-angel) beings, and not human souls?
Messimom
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Post by NaildWithHim on Nov 12, 2005 12:01:23 GMT -8
Pioneer wrote:
Whether or not hell is real isn't the point. I assume your saying here that you will only serve G-d on your own terms, and not His. YHVH does not have to take pleasure in pouring out His wrath for His wrath to be Scriptural. In fact, it is quite Scriptural. As it is written.
Shalom
Naild
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Post by NaildWithHim on Nov 12, 2005 12:07:39 GMT -8
Messimom,
I believe it is the resposibility of the individual to study to show thyself approved. Holding grudges against Pators for being blinded to truth is rediculous. If someone buys into thier error it is THIER responsibilty. That's just passing the buck, and I see that alot. In fact, what Firestorm has said is true in alot of Messianic circles. If Christians call it white then a Messianic will call it black just for spite. Because after all, Christians couldn't possibly have even a morsel of truth. Good grief!
Shalom
Naild
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Post by Yitzchak on Nov 12, 2005 14:56:12 GMT -8
Naild, On the other hand (as Tevye would say  , one must keep in mind that Yeshua, and Rav Shaul did not come to start some new religion. I find it quite interesting on other boards that the Christians cannot reconcile that Yeshua is the giver of the , and Yeshua is the made flesh. They insist that we adhere to their "Trinity" doctrine, and they themselves try to separate Him from the G-dhead that they espouse, when you start talking about . For instance, they claim that the dividing wall is . How could this be? Did HaShem erect a wall between Jews and Gentiles, only to have it torn down? There was always a way made for the Gentiles to sojourn with the nation of Israel. This is not some NT concept as most would like to believe, but is a concept. That is why it is easy for us to say that scripture must support scripture. Do you really think it is possible to understand the Brit Chadasha without looking at it through the lens of Tenakh? To discount the fact that G-d chose to preserve the scriptures through a particular nation, and that He also chose to bring salvation through that same nation, and that this nation brings with it a language, culture, perspective, and literary style is to do an injustice. This is one of the greatest errors in the "Church." They assume that they have replaced Israel, and that there is no longer a reason to look at things related to the foundation of their faith, which is a very Jewish tree to which they have been grafted in. They assume that it is we who must assimilate into the "Church" rather than understanding that Messianic Judaism is what G-d desired, and still desires for the "One New Man" Most people are satisified with the bias of the Greek translators, I for one, would prefer to look at the context, and the Hebraic perspective of the scriptures. When we talk about literary style, we must realize that the Rabbi's of the time, most definitely had a style of writing, and even this differed between the different schools of thought. One must take this into consideration when reading the words of Yeshua, and most especially Rav Shaul. I know I will only speak the truth that has been revealed to me by the Ruach HaKodesh, and if this means saying "black or white", so as not to conform to the majority, but to stand with HaShem, well then I guess you already know which side I will pick. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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Post by Mishkan on Nov 12, 2005 15:44:17 GMT -8
On the other hand (as Tevye would say , one must keep in mind that Yeshua, and Rav Shaul did not come to start some new religion. I find it quite interesting on other boards that the Christians cannot reconcile that Yeshua is the giver of the , and Yeshua is the made flesh. They insist that we adhere to their "Trinity" doctrine, and they themselves try to separate Him from the G-dhead that they espouse, when you start talking about . Hmmmm... where have I heard this before?  You know this whole post of yours sounds like a collection of what you and I have been writing on "that other forum" for the past couple of weeks. This might be a good foundation for an article that can be posted, and referred to in the future. That's actually how my own website got started—I tired of constantly writing the same things over and over, so I wrote some "canned" articles that could serve as reference material for the future. It has served me quite well. Shalom, Mishkan David |
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Post by Mishkan on Nov 12, 2005 16:02:33 GMT -8
I believe it is the resposibility of the individual to study to show thyself approved. Shalom, Naild! Good to see you again. Sorry to have lost touch over on the other forum. I entered a very busy, and very difficult, time in my life shortly after signing up over there. I was just invited to join here a few days ago. I hope to stay more consistent, now. Just a tiny quibble about your quotation. "Study to show yourself approved" has nothing to do with book learning. In King Jimmy's English, "study," meant, "Take care," or, "Be diligent." I know many people who make this same mistake. In fact, just about every dispensationalist will misuse this verse in the same way. If Christians call it white then a Messianic will call it black just for spite. Because after all, Christians couldn't possibly have even a morsel of truth. Good grief! I suppose many of us are guilty of this, at times. Of course, some of this is due to the unique experiences of Messianics at the hands of Christian apologists. There are times when we are forced into corners by the Christian teachers—not because we want to be negative, but because they demand the right to shove words into our mouths. And just for the record... yes, I have just had exactly that sort of thing happen to me in a big way within the past week. Shalom, Mishkan David |
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. That would condemn many generations of people. This is definitely something to think about.
on them) because we all got here through investigating and we are all still learning. It is that personal quest for truth and wisdom that has brought all of us here today.
