Witnessing to an Orthodox Jew

[Nashdude]

I've been attempting to witness to a self-proclaimed "religious jew" for about three weeks now. This has been extremely difficult as he doesn't recognize the authority of the New Testament, and I don't recognize the authority of the Oral . The only common ground we have is the Tanakh, and it's been a very trying time for me---both on my limited knowledge of the , and on my patience.

As a result, I've gained practically no ground with him. He is, of course, much more knowledgable than I am. On the other hand, I haven't semed to have LOST any ground with him, either. I don't know if my persistence has garnered me any credibility with him, or just that the Lord has been working mightily, but he actually ENGAGES the discussion, rather than writing my disagreements off. So while I'm not exactly discouraged, I'm still wearing down.

I ask your prayers for both this guy---calls himself Kivam---and for myself, that God's Will should be made manifest in WHATEVER form He sees fit, whether to draw Kiv into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, or whether to humble ME so that I don't get too "big headed" in His blessings upon me.

Also, is there anything YALL can tell me about how to approach him, anything I might be missing?

[Mark]

Hi Nash,

First, I want to point out that there is a difference between an "Orthodox Jew" and a "religious Jew". The distinction may seem strange; but referring to oneself as Jewish does not imply a religious conviction but rather a cultural distinction. That's a ; but it is very much the case. For one to say that he or she is Jewish does not suggest that they are any pursuit of God nor that they care about any spiritual matters.

To say that he is a religious Jew simply says that he cares about Spiritual matters and that he is in pursuit of a relationship with Adonai. This is a good thing. It demonstrates that he is aware of the securlar dominance of simply being Jewish. It is very much like the rich young ruler who ran to Messiah in Matthew 19 who recognized the lack in his spiritual condition.

If I were having a conversation with this fellow and he said that he didn't believe the New Testament, I would tell him that is fine because we really don't need it. Paul, in the New Testament said, "All Scripture (Jewish Scripture) is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work." (2nd Timothy 3:16-17) The New Testament had not been written yet. He was talking about the Hebrew Tanakh.

Paul said that he taught faith in Messiah describing at as "the way which they call heresy" proclaiming that he believed "all things that are written in the Law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:14). The writers of the New Testament saw no contradiction between their Jewish faith and the fulfillment of the promised Messiah in Yeshua ben Yosef ben David.

With this in mind, I recommend opening up the Scriptures with this fellow and learning together with him- not sparring with him; but discussing the relevance and meaning of the Tanakh. Why not go through the minor prophets together? Why not midrash (discuss in order to find the right meaning) the Parashah together? But plan ahead, do your homework and recognize that every element of the Hebrew Scriptures draws you closer in your understanding of who is our Messiah. In your own growth in that spiritual relationship, your friend will inevitably begin to gain glimpses of the Messiah, himself.

Blessings and grace to you and to him. I will continue to pray for Adonai's spirit to guide you both,

Mark

[lawrenceofisrael]

It is very important that you not only witness to him but that you practice in front of him.
Jews were persecuted by the christian church for more than thousand years and several bloody pogroms happened leaving thousands of jews dead.
Thats also one reason on why they refer to Yeshua as Yeshu ( meaning: may his name be forgotten).
They believe that Yeshua taught a completely new way while Yeshua and the apostles taught what was already said and they preached against those misleading the folk of Israel.

One thing you can do is to proof talmud wrong. I don´t have the knowledge about talmud but that is one option. Another would be to proof to him that messiah had to die on the cross and that he had to come before the second temple was destroyed. Since that already happened it is impossible that messiah is still to come the first time.

A good video with arguments to use is this one from a messianic brother ( may the Lord reward him and bless him).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaJrFa-UHh0 and
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmarCr7lH6s

[yaromkal]

In my opinion

Nash____ When you debate, speak, try to convert etc an Orthodox Jew, or even a Conservative Jew about Yeshua (Jesus) being the Jewish Messiah, you are fighting an uphill battle, because Christians have taught and shown with their actions that Yeshua came to abolish the . In abolishing the as Christians have shown, this makes Yeshua a false prophet according to the itself, (Deuteronomy). Even if you show him that Yeshua came and fulfilled this Messianic scripture and performed countless miracles, the bottom line is that He abolished the (Taught differently then at Sinai), thus making him a false prophet worthy of death (per ) and the even talks about false prophets who perform miracles and great signs in front of you. Even debating whether Yeshua was Messiah Ben Joseph or Messiah Ben David in regards to which prophecies were fulfilled and which ones are to be, is useless because the major issue is the . Remember, Yeshua said He came to fulfill not to abolish in Matthew 5.

Before you try to talk with an Orthodox Jew, you (YOU) must understand that Yeshua did not abolish the law (Acts 21), but kept it completely, to the least letter, and taught others to do the same. If you don’t believe this, then talking to a true Orthodox Jew about Yeshua is meaningless, you’ll never win. If you don’t believe Yeshua taught observance, then you and your friend will only be talking about the accuracy of the , not whether Yeshua was the Messiah, because you will be choosing what scriptures you like and which ones you don’t, and he will be doing the same. (An endless cycle)

Note Matthew 22, the wedding feast. Christians like the first part about the Kings friends who reject the invitation either through apathy or disrespect, and how the King then invites the people off the streets, the good and the bad. But too bad there is more to that story then this, and that is about those who refuse to don wedding garments and are bound and throw into outer darkness with much weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Great study - outer darkness – but that is for another time). In Yeshua’s time, the wedding parable about the garments were understood by all, it was the garment of the . Unfortunately most Christians have taken the parts of scriptures they like, and excluding those parts of scriptures they don’t like or understand. Unfortunately this makes Christians susceptible to the man of lawlessness and the possibility of being thrown into outer darkness. As Yeshua said in this parable, “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

Hopes this helps.

[zionlion]

I think that in witnessing to the spiritually-minded Jewish person there are some truths that are critical and must be understood. Among them are:

1) Elohim Has a Son (Psalm 2)

2) Covenant - No one has relationship with Elohim apart from covenants which He creates.

3) Atonement - Elohim does not tolerate the breaking of His Law (sin). He requires atonement for sin. The atonement must be by blood.

4) Covenants Change But Requirement of Atonement Doesn't - Speaking through the prophet Jeremiah, Elohim spoke of a time when the covenant with Moses would be replaced with a new and better covenant. This has obviously occurred because no one can take a lamb to the Temple and have the High Priest make atonement; yet the requirement for atonement remains.

The prophet Isaiah tells of the One who will suffer and have His blood shed for the atonement of Israel and, by the grace of Elohim, for all mankind. This sacrifice had to be made by a male, spotless and without blemish; obviously not someone of the human race. The Messiah. The Son of Elohim.

5) The New Covenant is Not Optional - Messiah said if one doesn't believe in Him, that person has no atonement and will be cut off.

6) The Rabbi vs The Tanach - The Jewish person must base his/her theology on the Tanach. If the rabbi's focus is on oral law (noahide law, for example), he is guilty of perpetuating a man-made covenant. He is no friend of Elohim and no friend of his fellow Jews. If the rabbi is a woman; well, enough said.

Welcome to the board, yaromkal.