Rabbinic vs. Messianic

[dave]

This is from Dr. Michael Brown. realmessiah.askdrbrown.org/Read/Entries/2008/11/29_The_place_of_Rabbinic_Tradition_in_Messianic_Judiasm.html

Thoughts anyone?

Dave

Mod note: as with many older posts, I couldn't access the link. However the discussion has some good information and opinions, so I'm reviving the thread.

[Mark]

Dr. Brown left off a couple of verses, probably the most significant is Acts 28:17 where Paul declares, "I have done nothing against the customs of the fathers...." Since he appeals to the Corinthians, the Philippians and the Thessalonians to "imitate" him, the traditional practices that he embraced in his iorthodoxy would be undoubtedly a part of that.

In 2nd Thessalonians 2:15, Paul uses strongest language, "stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught..." He wasn't talking about Christmas or Easter; but the Hebraic traditions which Paul had been brought up as tools to lead him in a greater and more intimate understanding of his relationship with the God of Israel.

In Romans 3:2, he declares that unto the Jew has been given the "oracles of God", not simply the written word butthe capacity to comprehend in a way that the gentile mind is not priviledged concerning. In order to understand the complexity of the Scriptures, you need to aquire a Jewish mindset.

Much of the antagonism toward the traditional Jewish materials is that some elements of the Talmud are blatantly anti-Christian (this is ignoring the fact that most of the English New Testament is blatantly anti-semitic). Yet, we find that our hostility is toward that which we are less familiar. I find very much of the opposite what Dr. Brown concludes, that the Jewish traditions are irrelevant to his understanding of the New Testament of Messiah- rather I find even in para-biblical traditions of Jewish culture, the person of Messiah Yeshua is screaming, "Here I am!"

[dave]

I understand some of his points. Like the example of wearing a yarmulke and eating at McDonalds. It sends a difficult message to an Orthodox Jew. But then again, what is the harm in enjoying the richness of a beautiful culture? Yeshua was in the Temple for the Feast of Dedication, and yet that is not one of Adonai's commanded feasts. If it is good enough for Yeshua, then isn't it good for me? Aren't I to walk as He Himself walked? But then I understand how much the rabbis were against Yeshua and how much the Orthodox Jew stands again Him.

There has to be a fine line somewhere. Like maybe using a bit of common sense. Where is the balance?

[Mark]

First, there is McDonalds in Israel, and last I checked (though it's been a while) they do have vegetarian items. If you are worried about offending someone Jewish then you have a lot to learn about Judaism. It can't be avoided because every element of is to be wrestled with and scrutinized. The argument is the same as those who refuse to put a evangelistic bumper sticker on their car just in case they get caught speeding.

The problem is that the gentile wishes to retain his non-Jewish identity and be accepted on equal grounds to the Jewish Messiah. This is contrary to what Messiah and Paul taught. The gentile is invited to come into this Jewish faith as far is he wishes to come; but the distance he places himself from the Jewish identity is a distance he places himself from God.

[Mark]

I just thought I'd add some powerful evidence of the necessity of understanding Rabbinic thinking. Paul says in 1st Corinthians, "All things are lawful but not all things are expedient...." The antinomian Church uses this verse pretty broadly suggesting that was not considered relevant by Paul. What they don't realize is that Paul is quoting an early Jewish writing called The Wisdom of Sira, a volume which would be later be included in Talmud. Because we easily dismiss the relevance of Jewish tradition and context, we completely miss what Paul is saying.

[David Ben Yosef]

May 24, 2009 15:26:20 GMT -8 Mark said:

In Romans 3:2, he declares that unto the Jew has been given the "oracles of God", not simply the written word butthe capacity to comprehend in a way that the gentile mind is not priviledged concerning. In order to understand the complexity of the Scriptures, you need to aquire a Jewish mindset.

I believe that Sha'ul is referring to the Sages of Israel when he uses the word "oracles" in Romans 3:2. If not directly, then most certainly by extension. The Greek word for oracles in Romans 3:2 is [logion] and only appears in four instances in the Apostolic Scriptures (Acts 7:38, Rom 3:2, Heb 5:12, and 1 Pet 4:11). So you are correct in surmising that these "oracles" given to Israel is not referring to the written word of G-d at all. Had Sha'ul meant to say "the word of G-d" he surely would have chosen different wording.

[zionlion]

Mark,

In reply # 1 you state, "(this is ignoring the fact that most of the English New Testament is blatantly anti-semitic)".

I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Would you elaborate?


Welcome to the board, David.

[David Ben Yosef]

Thanks for the welcome, zionlion.

[Mark]

Hi Zion,

Find an occurrance in the New Testament, particularly in the gospels where the term "the Jews" is used in a positive sense- here's a clue: they were all Jews! The term synagogue is universally used as a Jewish meeting place, yet James uses the term for the assembling of believers. English translations don't use the term synagogue but instead "assembly" because believers in Messiah do not meet in "synagogues". They have no problem using "synagogue" in references such as the "synagogue of the Jews" as if there were any other kind, and the "synagogue of satan".

[zionlion]

OK, I understand.
Your issue is with the translators.

[Mark]

Oh, Yes! Absolutely! If we undermine the credibility of the New Testament Scriptures as such, we are opening ourselves up to a pandora's box that is not only self-destructive but removes any confidence of the process Adonai has chosen to preserve His teachings to us- up to the mount on which Moses received . The entire premise that Adonai speaks to us through the preservation of written word is forfeited!

Yet, we have to be careful as to how that Word has been used and manipulated by those intent on their own agenda- of which I suppose we are all suspect.

[zionlion]

And isn't that another reason that New Covenant Scripture should be translated with its Hebraic nature intact, ie, James - Jacob, Mary - Miriam, so that the Jewish world will see that believers are not in some "different religion" that one "converts" to?

[lawrenceofisrael]

Jan 17, 2010 9:42:04 GMT -8 zionlion said:

And isn't that another reason that New Covenant Scripture should be translated with its Hebraic nature intact, ie, James - Jacob, Mary - Miriam, so that the Jewish world will see that believers are not in some "different religion" that one "converts" to?

I couldnt agree more. A name is what you are and with what right do we chance them. I am who i am and nobody can translate my name without changing something about me. But one point. James is not Jakob but Ya´akov

may peace and blessings be upon us all.

[zionlion]

You're right, but I haven't gotten that far, yet.
I'm still getting used to referring to James as Jacob.

[alon]

The debate on "Rabbinic vs. Messianic" has polarized us long enough. I submit that the real issue is too many Messianics are afraid to try to learn to think Hebraically. This is the real issue. While it is true that we do not follow every Rabbinic decree ever handed down, still those mitzvoth contain invaluable information for us as Messianics. They were made by studious, Godly men who thought as Jews. Since our Bible was written by Jews and since the early, "New Testament" followers were Jewish, and since it is this method of worship Messianism tries to emulate; I would posit that we need to get over this balking at things Jewish and embrace more than the outward appearance of Jewish services. We need to embrace Judaism, the way they think, the "why" before the "do" things.

Dan C