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Post by Natan-El on Jul 10, 2006 8:36:10 GMT -8
I've recently had a Christian tell me that no matter what Scripture says, he's sticking to this one and refusing to believe that we are to observe the  . Any suggestions? He awaits a response, and I just don't have it. Todah! |
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Post by Yitzchak on Jul 10, 2006 9:58:22 GMT -8
This is my take on things, and this was posted on another thread titled, "Shadow of things to come"
Hope this helps.
What is happening here is what happens most often, and that is the mistranslation from the Greek.
A proper rendering of this passage from the Greek would be:
Col 2:16
Meé (no/not) oún (therefore) tis (any man) humás (you) krinétoo (Let judge) en (in) broósei (meat) kaí (and) en (in) pósei (drink) eé (or/either) en (in) mérei (respect) heorteés (of a feast day) eé (or) neomeenías (of a new moon) eé (or) sabbátoon (of sabbath days)
Col 2:17
há (which) estin (are) skiá (a shadow) toón mellóntoon (of the things to come) tó (the) dé (but) soóma (body) toú Christoú (of Messiah).
Taking this into consideration, verse 16 would best be translated as
"Therefore, do not let anyone judge you in food/meat and in drink - (either) as part of (or "with regards to") a festival or a new moon or (the) sabbaths ..."
More importantly, there is NO "IS" at the end of verse 17 regarding the Body of Messiah. It does not say the "substance is of Messiah"
It is amazing that this is one of the only scriptures where the greek word "sooma" is translated as "substance" rather than "body". All of the other 147 instances used has it properly translated.
If one does an in depth study on this passage, using the proper tranlation techniques they will find that what Paul is teaching is the following:
The only one's who were to judge regarding food and drink as it regarded festivals, Sabbaths, and New Moon celebrations was the Messianic Community, and its Leaders.
What was happening in Collosae and the message Rav Shaul was trying to convey throughout this chapter is this:
People with little or no connection with the true body of the Messiah are causing a lot of damage to the fellowship of believers. They deceive the believers with fine-sounding arguments (Col 2:4). They come from an angle of deceptive philosophy, depending on human tradition and the basic principles of the world, rather than on the Messiah (Col 2:8). They delight in false humility and the worship of angels, they are unspiritual in their minds and puffed up with idle notions (Col 2:18). They have no connection with the Head of the body, which is the Messiah Himself (Col 2:19). They are adherents of a self-imposed worship, based on human commands and human teachings (Col 2:22-23). The believers should be on the alert for the negative influence of these people and not to allow themselves to be deceived or sidetracked by them in any way.
Let us therefore complete the translation which does justice to both the grammatical content and wider context of Col 2:16-17: "Therefore, do not let anyone judge you in food and in drink, (either) as part of (or "with regards to") a festival or a new moon or (the) sabbaths - which are a shadow of the things to come - but the body of Messiah." Let the body of Messiah be the only people who help you to decide over matters of eating and drinking. No one else is suited for this responsibility. No one else understands the spiritual meaning of the appointed times where this eating and drinking normally take place. People from outside the body of believers have no idea that the festivals and new moons and sabbaths are a shadow, a reflection backward in time, of the things to come. The only people that can appreciate and know the value of the things to come, are the members of the body of the Messiah. These are the only ones you should listen to when making decisions of this nature.
Shalom,
Yitzchak
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Post by Nachshon on Jul 10, 2006 18:25:05 GMT -8
As properly rendered by Dr. Lamsa from the original Aramaic, "Let no man therefore create a distrubance among you about eating and drinking, or about the division of feast days, the beginning of the months and the day of the Sabbath. These are shadows of things to come; but the main objective is Christ." There is an age-old dispute about whether the new moon is on the dark of the moon or the sliver of the moon. That is largely what this is referring to. Essentially what Paul is saying, when this verse is taken in context, is don't let anyone judge you on how you keep the , not on whether or not you do it. For instance, there was the thread on mushrooms. I don't eat them, some do. If I were ever to go to their house to eat, Paul would encourage them not to serve mushrooms, and he would encourage me not to judge them for eating mushrooms. We're both keeping to the best of our understanding. Read this page. Lamsa's translation throws some light on the passage; aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Lamsa/12_Colossians/Colossians2.htmShalom, David |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 10, 2006 23:40:24 GMT -8
Very good gentleman. I think you answered that question well from two slightly different angles. Yitzchak, I do think that your translation of the Greek is accurate. I don't believe that the scriptures support the idea that people in the body of Messiah are taught not to worry about the accepted teachings and judgments of those whom are well studied in , have proven themselves to be faithful, and whom have been appointed as leaders in the body of Messiah. In fact, Sha'ul (Paul) expects that there should be those whom are equipped to do that very thing... "1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with also judging those who are outside? Don't you judge those who are within? 1Co 5:13 But those who are outside, YHVH judges. "Put away the wicked man from among yourselves." "1Co 6:2 Don't you know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1Co 6:3 Don't you know that we will judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 1Co 6:4 If then, you have to judge things pertaining to this life, do you set them to judge who are of no account in the assembly? 1Co 6:5 I say this to move you to  . Isn't there even one wise man among you who would be able to decide between his brothers?" I believe that Colossians 2:16 goes hand in hand with the above passages. If you are willing to live within a particular Messianic community and have joined yourself to a Messianic congregation and are seeking to dwell therein to the end that you are in unity with them...than I think that it is wise to take into account and listen to the Messianic Minister or Rabbi in that community as to how some things in are to be observed...especially if you are not well learned and are new to a based faith in Messiah. There are teachers and elders in the body of Messiah that Adonai has set for this very purpose. We would be foolish not to take advantage of this resource that our Heavenly Father provides for us. And Nacshon, I agree with you that the argument was never about whether or not we should keep ...it was all about whom we are willing to let determine these matters...Would it be the Messianic Beit Din (House of Judgment) whom we see in the book of Acts 15 have already determined several matters regarding observance? Or, will it be the Pharisaic (non-believing Rabbinic) Beit Din?.... I guarantee you that this was the argument that was taking place then....and now. There is nothing new under the sun. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by MattyJames on Jul 17, 2006 4:52:55 GMT -8
Very well said Yitzchak and Reuel. Your understanding is in total harmony with that of our fellowships belief and understanding.
Its very encouraging to see a confirmation of such understanding on one of Christianities pet suposedly lawless justifications. We quote the same undertstanding regularly.
There is nothing for me to say :-D It has already been said.
MJ
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Post by Nachshon on Jul 17, 2006 9:00:06 GMT -8
I disagree. I believe that the commands of are vague on purpose. Father gives us room to decide how to build our Sukkas, how to celebrate Yom Taru'a. He wants us to celebrate each in our way. There is nothing wrong with having a tradition of, for instance, eating sweets on Yom Taru'a. But, as human beings, we often try to press our particular traditions on others. I believe that is what Paul is warning against. Shalom, David |
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Post by Yitzchak on Jul 18, 2006 12:56:49 GMT -8
I disagree. I believe that the commands of are vague on purpose. Father gives us room to decide how to build our Sukkas, how to celebrate Yom Taru'a. He wants us to celebrate each in our way. There is nothing wrong with having a tradition of, for instance, eating sweets on Yom Taru'a. But, as human beings, we often try to press our particular traditions on others. I believe that is what Paul is warning against. Shalom, David I am confused as to whom you are replying to. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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Post by Natan-El on Jul 20, 2006 7:30:07 GMT -8
I disagree. I believe that the commands of are vague on purpose. Father gives us room to decide how to build our Sukkas, how to celebrate Yom Taru'a. He wants us to celebrate each in our way. The marriage covenant was never vague. Adonai said "This is what I'm looking for, and these are my conditions." We can't pick and choose what we want in a husband, it's already been chosen for us. How can we as Yochanan 17:22 puts it "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one", if we all choose to follow the marriage contract how we want to? You may argue and say that we are all different parts of the body and you would be right. But like the body, it operates using the same method of commands, i.e. the nervous system. We should all be of one mind by, like the body, allowing the Head (Yeshua) to think for us. |
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. Any suggestions? He awaits a response, and I just don't have it. Todah!
. Isn't there even one wise man among you who would be able to decide between his brothers?"
