Jude 9

[Nachshon]

Please forgive me if I'm posting this in the wrong section. I couldn't figure out where this question fit best.
Jude 9 appears to be quoting from Zecheriah 3:2, but simply by reading those two verses, you can see immense problems with that. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Shalom,
David

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

Please forgive me if I'm posting this in the wrong section. I couldn't figure out where this question fit best.
Jude 9 appears to be quoting from Zecheriah 3:2, but simply by reading those two verses, you can see immense problems with that. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Shalom,
David

Don't you think that Jude seems to be quoting the "Oral "?
Shalom

[Chizuk Emunah]

Since he is quoting what seems to be two sources (D'varim 34:6 & Z'charyiah 3:2), I would also agree that Y'hudah seems to be quoting directly from the Oral .

[Nachshon]

I have not studied Talmud, so could you point out where this event is mentioned? I've also developed a theory about these passages, but I'd like to hear what Talmud says before I present it.
Thank you so much.

Shalom,
David

[Curt]

Posted by Nachshon on 7/4/06 at 18:05
Please forgive me if I'm posting this in the wrong section. I couldn't figure out where this question fit best.
Jude 9 appears to be quoting from Zecheriah 3:2, but simply by reading those two verses, you can see immense problems with that. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Jude 9 and Deuteronomy 34:6 are speaking of Moses being buried by the LORD and then being ressurected by Michael the archangel who is Jesus. Satan was there to contend for the body of Moses or to say he does not deserve eternal life. Jesus rebuked Satan and took Moses to heaven.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6

5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day

Jude 1:9

9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Curt: Zechariah is seeing a vision of the future when Joshua will be judged by God. Again Satan is there to contend for Joshua just like he did with Moses because he does not want him to have eternal life. Again the LORD rebukes Satan and gives Joshua eternal life. Joshua wore filthy garments symbolic of his sin. Jesus gave Joshua clean rich robes which is symbolic of Jesus's righteousness and covering Joshua's sin. From Zechariah's vision we can conclude Joshua will receive eternal life.

Zechariah 3:1-5 .

Zechariah 3
V
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.
4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”
5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.”
So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the LORD stood by

[Chizuk Emunah]

Hmm... Don't necessarily agree with that interpretation. At what point was Y'hoshua ben-Nun a Cohen Gadol?

[Nachshon]

I have to agree with Natanel. This is referring to Joshua Cohen Hagadol, as found in Nehemiah, Ezra, and Haggai. Joshua ben Jehozadak.
Also, why do you say that Micha'el is Yeshua? I'm just curious. I've heard that from Jehova's Witnesses before, but have never really heard a compelling argument for it.
Thank you both so much for replying.

Shalom,
David

[Curt]

I have to agree with Natanel. This is referring to Joshua Cohen Hagadol, as found in Nehemiah, Ezra, and Haggai. Joshua ben Jehozadak

Curt: Don't know what your point is? Clearly the person being discussed in Zechariah 3 is Joshua. Whichever Joshua you want to choose is alright with me! It's the principles and conclusions I brought forth which are important not the name of the person.

Zechariah 3:1
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.

Also, why do you say that Micha'el is Yeshua? I'm just curious

.

Curt: Jesus has many names. Michael is just one of them. Example: Lamb
Revelation 5:8

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints

Example: Word

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Example: Faithful and True and King of Kings and LORD of LORDS.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[c] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Curt: Who do the angels belong to. It's Jesus their Creator. Who is powerful enough to throw Satan out of heaven. It's Jesus! Who does it say fought with Satan and his angels and threw them out of heaven. It says Michael and His angels.

Also, why do you say that Micha'el is Yeshua? I'm just curious. I've heard that from Jehova's Witnesses before, but have never really heard a compelling argument for it.

Curt: Because Michael is an archangel. Archangel simply means chief of the angels the same as George W. is Comander and Chief of the Military. George W. is not a soldier just because he is Commander and Chief. Jesus is not an angel just because He is chief of the angels.

I've had the opportunity to talk with the Jehovah Witnesses they do not say what I am saying. They say Jesus is an angel!

[Blake]

I believe Jude is paraphrasing the book called "Assumption of Moses" as he quotes The Book of Enoch in this letter as well.

[Chizuk Emunah]

"Assumption of Moses"

Assumption Of Moshe? Never heard of it. Can you provide a link?

[Yitzchak]

Achi,

I found this link on the above referenced work. It is at the end of this article that there are some troubling statements for me, and would speak to why it is unlikely that any believer in Messiah would quote from this in the scriptures.

encyclopedia.jrank.org/MOL_MOS/MOSES_ASSUMPTION_OF.html

" a sacred spirit who was worthy of the Lord manifold and incomprehensible " (xi. 16). Apparently his relation to Israel did not cease with death, as he was to be their intercessor in the spiritual world (xii. 6). His death was an ordinary one (i. 15, iii.

13, X. 12, 14), but no single place was worthy to mark the place of his burial, for his sepulchre was from the rising to the setting sun, and from the south to the confines of the north—yea, the whole world was his sepulchre (xi. 8).

These are heretical in my view. as they place Moshe on the same level as Yeshua.


Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Blake]

Enoch is equally as heretical and it is indisputable he quoted that.

Origen was familiar with the Assumption/Testament of Moses of which we only have fragments remaining and attributed this confrontation as a quotation of the text as did including Clement of Alexandria, Dydimus the Blind, and Gelasius. Some of whom quotated the origional.

Seeing that Yehudah directly quotes Enoch and refers to the angels who kept not their first abode (the Watchers) chronicled within I have no problem accepting that he quoted the Assumption of Moses which is the only work we have a clue contained such a tale.

It obvious he was quoting something, though it now be lost.

If you were a mystic in those times you didn't have something like the Zohar to rely on. Only books like these, and there were lots of them.

[Blake]

nachshon said:

I have not studied Talmud, so could you point out where this event is mentioned? I've also developed a theory about these passages, but I'd like to hear what Talmud says before I present it.
Thank you so much.

Shalom,
David

You won't find it anywhere in the Talmud because its not in there. I have no idea what Oral they are referring too but its not one recorded by Taanaim. Pure and simple baseless speculation.