Hebrews 6:4

[Nachshon]

I put this here because I do not think that Hebrews was written by Sha'ul.
But I have a question about Hebrews 6:4. It is introduced by the Greek "gar" or the Aramaic "ele." The Greek means "for" or "because" and the Aramaic means "but."
The thing I can't figure out is how this is connected to the previous verse. It very well may refer back to verse 2, where baptism is mentioned, but there is really nothing for this information to be contrasted with, and there is nothing that would cause or explain it in the previous verse.
I was hoping someone here might have some insight as to why this verse was introduced so.
Thanks.

Shabbat shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

There are a couple of questions you seem to be asking here- the first is the authorship of the book of Hebrews and the second concerning the text.

From a Judaic perspective, authorship bears little relevance. Is the text speaking consistently and in alleignment with the prophets of old? Is so, then, from a Judaic perspective, it merits acknowledgment as "Scripture" or "holy writings". Spernatural infusion to the source is not so much an issue of doctrine as credibility of the text when compared to and other recognized Scripture. Canonization is a Greek concept and even the Talmud is a response to Greek methodology.

Yet, our New Testament Scriptures were not assembled by Jews. It is the product of the Holy Catholic Church. For them, the original author must have had direct contact with the Messiah: i.e., one of the 12 apostles, James or Paul. I actually have a text that credits the book of Hebrews to Timothy. This would have been impossible, given the criteria laid down at both the councils of Nicea and Trent. While we are comfortable with saying that we are unsure as to who was the author of the book of Hebrews, these councils undoubtedly and unreservedly accredited itto Paul. Argue with them if you like; but I prefer the Judaic perspective.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a passage that clearly distinguishes two camps in Christian doctrine: the one suggests that by man's free-will, he at some point reject the gift of salvation, and thus d**n himself for all eternity. The other camp declares that once a person recieves the gift of salvation, he is utterly saved and there is no means by which he could lose that salvation. Both positions have some doctrinal merit.

I would suggest that the "for" or "but" takes you back to verse 12 of chapter 5. It is commonly forgotten that the Book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. By the time we get to chapter six, we have defaulted to the understanding that the "elementary principles of Christ" are speaking of the four gospels, not the , forgetting that the doctrines of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the docrines of baptisms (mikvah), of laying on of hands (barchoo), of resurrection of the dead (Gibor Adonai) and of eternal judgment are all Jewish doctrines.

I would suggest that verse 4 paralels with Romans 3:2, declaring that unto the Jews have been given the oracles of God. This opens the interpretation of these verses to a completely new understanding, suggesting to the Jew, that acceptance of Yeshua as the Messiah is the natural conclusion of those who are reading the Old Testament Scriptures with any integrity. Using modern metaphors, verse 6 of chapter 6 suggests that for the Jew to deny Yeshua as Messiah is to derail themselves from the faith of Judaism. To seek for another Messiah must force one to illigitmize the prophecies of old, which will inevitable result in "thorns and briers"(verse 8) though if interpretted correctly, accepting Yeshua as Messiah, receives blessing from God.

[alon]

Hebrews 5:11 through 6:8 is an argument that salvation itself happens only once, and once saved we should move forward, growing in the word and ourselves enlightening others instead of always learning the basics. The argument here seems to be that once truly saved and accepted by God, you cannot truly fall away and stay in that fallen state.

From the comments in my "Key Word Study Bible", "From a false assumption we deduce absurd conclusions. It is false to suppose we could fall, because that would invalidate the crucifixion of Christ on which our repentance was based if we were to be saved to the end. ... The great difficulty in this whole question is that we interpret our own 'decision to follow Christ' as salvation per se. It is the second step toward salvation, the first having been the offer of that salvation by God through Christ in the convicting energy of the Holy Spirit. But our acceptance of God's offer is not salvation. We are truly saved when God see that our repentance of our sin is genuine and accepts us and makes us a part of His body. Salvation presupposes truly genuine repentance on our part ... ."

That is the crux of a lot of problems in churches and synagogues everywhere. They are full of people who were told all they had to do was accept salvation to attain it. Repentance is almost never stressed, nor for that matter obedience either. A whole lot of the bouncing between the world and heavenly pursuits is due, I think, to the fact that most of us never really left the world. We are taught a feel good religion, wherein our walking forward and saying 'yes' makes us feel better about our sins, and these feelings are misinterpreted as the 'Holy Spirit' in us. So the enemy often has more people in God's camp than He does!

Those truly saved are the ones who move on, naturally progressing from the milk of the word to taking solid food, and then to feeding others.

Dan C

[Deleted]

Hi Alon,

"That is the crux of a lot of problem in churches and synagogues everywhere. They are full of people who were told all they had to do was accept salvation to attain it. Repentance is almost never stressed, nor for that matter obedience either. A whole lot of the bouncing between the world and heavenly pursuits is due, I think, to the fact that most of us never really left the world. We are taught a feel good religion, wherein our walking forward and saying 'yes' makes us feel better about our sins, and these feelings are misinterpreted as the 'Holy Spirit' in us. So the enemy often has more people in God's camp than He does!"

I can totally agree with you on this. I see a lot of this going on today in many churches. It is like they have no responsibility towards their sins. It is almost like saying it is ok to come to Christ and not be responsible for your sins. I hope this made sense.

Moriah Ruth

[Questor]

Mar 18, 2014 6:53:58 GMT -8 alon said:

Hebrews 5:11 through 6:8 is an argument that salvation itself happens only once, and once saved we should move forward, growing in the word and ourselves enlightening others instead of always learning the basics. The argument here seems to be that once truly saved and accepted by God, you cannot truly fall away and stay in that fallen state.

From the comments in my "Key Word Study Bible", "From a false assumption we deduce absurd conclusions. It is false to suppose we could fall, because that would invalidate the crucifixion of Christ on which our repentance was based if we were to be saved to the end. ... The great difficulty in this whole question is that we interpret our own 'decision to follow Christ' as salvation per se. It is the second step toward salvation, the first having been the offer of that salvation by God through Christ in the convicting energy of the Holy Spirit. But our acceptance of God's offer is not salvation. We are truly saved when God see that our repentance of our sin is genuine and accepts us and makes us a part of His body. Salvation presupposes truly genuine repentance on our part ... ."

That is the crux of a lot of problem in churches and synagogues everywhere. They are full of people who were told all they had to do was accept salvation to attain it. Repentance is almost never stressed, nor for that matter obedience either. A whole lot of the bouncing between the world and heavenly pursuits is due, I think, to the fact that most of us never really left the world. We are taught a feel good religion, wherein our walking forward and saying 'yes' makes us feel better about our sins, and these feelings are misinterpreted as the 'Holy Spirit' in us. So the enemy often has more people in God's camp than He does!

Those truly saved are the ones who move on, naturally progressing from the milk of the word to taking solid food, and then to feeding others.

Dan C

I have always wondered why I have been so adamant in my view that one can turn around and walk away from the Ruach, and yet somehow be held onto by Yeshua. But it is true...one can walk away, and if you keep on walking, you are committing the unforgiveable sin against the Ruach haKodesh.

It wouldn't be unforgiveable if it was not possible.

Having walked away three separate times, I had a violent plowing of the ground to get the thorns out of my life...everything that had already been sown was caught away by an evil, drying wind the first time; the second time the ground was so demon filled that one couldn't walk for tripping on them, and my root withered again; the third time there were so many thorns put in my path that my entire life had to be plowed under to make me able to want all that I had learned and understood long since; and finally, all the knowledge of good crowded out the evil weeds that kept popping up that some peace came to this poor piece of ground.

Did I really walk far enough away that Yeshua couldn't find me? No. But I did choose to go back with Him.

Probably the only truly sane thing I ever did, and it was perhaps the most difficult from a human frame of mind.   It would have been so easy to slip into the despair, and give in to the Adversary, since he was pushing all the emotional buttons that were pinning me down.

I believed...most thoroughly. I didn't want to walk in any other way but mine, and until my auto accident 19 years ago I thought I could make my way work.



Pride goeth before a fall, and rebelliousness is the sin of Adam.



What was the surprise? That when I let YHVH do His work in me, through Yeshua, and the Ruach haKodesh, life got easier to live. Just a bit here and there at first, but more, and more, until the days have some joyful hours every day, and I have had the days of Glorious (42 in a row!), and will again...one day

Baruch haShem!

[alon]

Mar 19, 2014 21:20:25 GMT -8 Questor said:

Probably the only truly sane thing I ever did, ...

I can relate.

The Hebrews were not the only stiff necked people. I once told my wife's cousin (who is Jewish) that I thought God chose the Jews not because they were different, but because they were just like the rest of us, only more-so. I truly regret the lengths I made God go to in order to drag me back, kicking and screaming all the way.

One of the things our pastor at the AoG church likes to say is that "sin will always take you farther than you ever wanted to go." They do get it right from time to time. I went to the edge of my sanity, and crossed over a few times. Really stupid ...

My current medical problems are but one of the results with which I now must live.

Dan C

[Braveheart]

   ‘Faith alone’ was spoken only to the Jews who kept the commandments blamelessly, but only lacked faith in Christ. The Jews were the only nation in the world sacrificing animals for their atonement, and about to commit the “The abomination of Desolation’ ‘Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost’ the ‘Unpardonable sin unto Death’ by ‘sinning willfully’ and ‘despising the Spirit of grace’ by rejecting the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world; and offering a strange fire into the holy of holies, counting the blood by which they were sanctified as unholy’ and ‘trampling the Son of God under their feet’ making it impossible for Jews, ‘If they shall fall away, to be renewed again unto repentance’, by expecting God’s Son to be sent again and be ‘crucified, suffering the humiliation, , and persecution all over again.



   How shall we (Jews) escape, if we neglect such a great salvation that was confirmed to us by the Holy Ghost, miracles, signs, and wonders, and even fulfilled the prophecies that were foretold? The Jews didn’t recognize the ‘Time of their visitation’ rejecting their ‘Cornerstone’ the ‘Rock of their salvation’ Therefore, their house was left desolate, their temple was destroyed, and Jacob’s Trouble’ has scattered them into all nations. The Jews, till this day are still under the curses of God, because they rejected the true Lamb of God. They sold out their defense, God’s Son; there is no medicine, no balm in Gilead to bind up their wounds; their bruise is incurable, until they repent, and look upon Christ whom they pierced and say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’



   Christ abolished the sacrificial laws during the middle of the 70th week, which would have been a 'glorious time of refreshing' for the Jews. But the Jews home, their country has become desolate. Acts 13:40 Beware that what the Prophets prophesied doesn’t happen to you: Behold scoffers, marvel and perish, for I am doing a work in your days that you would never believe, even if it was declared unto you. Jesus said (And I paraphrase and abridge), O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, If you had only known, especially in your days, the peace, a time of refreshing that would come from the abolishing of the sacrificial laws I will put an end to, you would have rejoiced to see me, but now they are hidden from your eyes.

[alon]

May 15, 2024 5:23:15 GMT -8 Braveheart said:

   ‘Faith alone’ was spoken only to the Jews who kept the commandments blamelessly, but only lacked faith in Christ. The Jews were the only nation in the world sacrificing animals for their atonement, and about to commit the “The abomination of Desolation’ ‘Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost’ the ‘Unpardonable sin unto Death’ by ‘sinning willfully’ and ‘despising the Spirit of grace’ by rejecting the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world; and offering a strange fire into the holy of holies, counting the blood by which they were sanctified as unholy’ and ‘trampling the Son of God under their feet’ making it impossible for Jews, ‘If they shall fall away, to be renewed again unto repentance’, by expecting God’s Son to be sent again and be ‘crucified, suffering the humiliation, shame, and persecution all over again.

   How shall we (Jews) escape, if we neglect such a great salvation that was confirmed to us by the Holy Ghost, miracles, signs, and wonders, and even fulfilled the prophecies that were foretold? The Jews didn’t recognize the ‘Time of their visitation’ rejecting their ‘Cornerstone’ the ‘Rock of their salvation’ Therefore, their house was left desolate, their temple was destroyed, and Jacob’s Trouble’ has scattered them into all nations. The Jews, till this day are still under the curses of God, because they rejected the true Lamb of God. They sold out their defense, God’s Son; there is no medicine, no balm in Gilead to bind up their wounds; their bruise is incurable, until they repent, and look upon Christ whom they pierced and say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’

   Christ abolished the sacrificial laws during the middle of the 70th week, which would have been a 'glorious time of refreshing' for the Jews. But the Jews home, their country has become desolate. Acts 13:40 Beware that what the Prophets prophesied doesn’t happen to you: Behold scoffers, marvel and perish, for I am doing a work in your days that you would never believe, even if it was declared unto you. Jesus said (And I paraphrase and abridge), O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, If you had only known, especially in your days, the peace, a time of refreshing that would come from the abolishing of the sacrificial laws I will put an end to, you would have rejoiced to see me, but now they are hidden from your eyes.

What you are saying here is Christian doctrine specific to your own denomination. What denomination would that be? We cannot engage in honest conversation if you are not honest with us.

Also, this falls under teaching, which means it should be removed. But since I’ve been in hospital and away from the forum for a while so that many others have seen this, I will allow it to remain. That means it is open for honest and cogent discussion. However I would caution you that this does not constitute a blanket policy towards your teachings.

Iit would help if you gave your scriptural references instead of throwing out partial quotes like they were proof. They only lend themselves to acceptance if speaking to others who already agree with you. We here tend to like context.

And show me. please where in all of scripture it says “Christ abolished the sacrificial laws.” In fact, show me where He abolished any biblical law at all.

This doctrine is an especially egregious one, as it is extremely antisemitic. It was established not by scripture, but by the church fathers who wanted to exclude the Jews from ‘Heaven.’ It throws so many partial segments from scripture together, so it sounds good but on examination is just so much tripe. To be true, you’d have to establish a thread between each scripture you quote from here. But let me save you some time.

This all presupposes that grace is a New Testament idea only. No one ever kept Torah perfectly except Yeshua. But there has always been grace. Without it, this all ended with Adam. Daniel could never have been a man after God’s own heart. The patriarchs could never have been used to establish a nation.

Your last quote was from Heb 6:6. Let me just say this. If you want to interpret this that the Jews are excluded because they sinned, then you also are excluded unless you lived a perfect life after you accepted The Christ. And if you want to say they are excluded because they did not accept Yeshua the first time the Spirit urged them, ask yourself how many times you were quickened by the Spirit before you accepted.

You paint “the Jews” as having refused Yeshua. Yet as I read Acts they flocked to Him by the tens and thousands. I have heard some arguments that as much as 2/3rds of Israel followed Yeshua. I think that is a bit much. But Abba Ibn, Israeli ambassador to the UN and a historian thought the number likely over 1/3rd. Even today, speaking as a percentage more Jews believe in Yeshua than Gentiles.

I am not going to try to untangle the rest of your snippets of scripture, cut out and removed from context, then re-mixed to make light of the Word; Yeshua’s mission and sacrifice. I give this to show just how wrong you are.

mod note: please discuss only what has been brought up thus far. Clarification would be helpful. But expanding your teaching will result in removal or redaction of that post and possibly your being banned. Consider yourself warned- stay within the forum rules and guidelines.