Acts 10 Controversy

[Nathaniel]

Shalom!

Ok. Thank you Reuel. Here is a section from a website I found earlier...
"Bad effects of pork consumption:

Pig's bodies contain many toxins, worms and latent diseases. Although some of these infestations are harbored in other animals, modern veterinarians say that pigs are far more predisposed to these illnesses than other animals. This could be because pigs like to scavenge and will eat any kind of food, including dead insects, worms, rotting carcasses, excreta (including their own), garbage, and other pigs.

Influenza (flu) is one of the most famous illnesses which pigs share with humans. This illness is harbored in the lungs of pigs during the summer months and tends to affect pigs and humans in the cooler months. Sausage contains bits of pigs' lungs, so those who eat pork sausage tend to suffer more during epidemics of influenza.

Pig meat contains excessive quantities of histamine and imidazole compounds, which can lead to itching and inflammation; growth hormone, which promotes inflammation and growth; sulphur-containing mesenchymal mucus, which leads to swelling and deposits of mucus in tendons and cartilage, resulting in arthritis, rheumatism, etc. Sulphur helps cause firm human tendons and ligaments to be replaced by the pig's soft mesenchymal tissues, and degeneration of human cartilage. Eating pork can also lead to gallstones and obesity, probably due to its high cholesterol and saturated fat content. The pig is the main carrier of the taenia solium worm, which is found it its flesh. These tapeworms are found in human intestines with greater frequency in nations where pigs are eaten. This type of tapeworm can pass through the intestines and affect many other organs, and is incurable once it reaches beyond a certain stage. One in six people in the US and Canada has trichinosis from eating trichina worms which are found in pork. Many people have no symptoms to warn them of this, and when they do, they resemble symptoms of many other illnesses. These worms are not noticed during meat inspections, nor are they killed by salting or smoking. Few people cook the meat long enough to kill the trichinae. The rat (another scavenger) also harbors this disease. There are dozens of other worms, germs, diseases and bacteria which are commonly found in pigs, many of which are specific to the pig, or found in greater frequency in pigs.

Pigs are biologically similar to humans, and their meat is said to taste similar to human flesh. Pigs have been used for dissection in biology labs due to the similarity between their organs and human organs. People with insulin-dependent diabetes usually inject themselves with pig insulin. If you pour Coke (yes, the soda) on a slab of pork, and wait a little while, you will see worms crawl out of it."

Nathaniel

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

If you pour Coke (yes, the soda) on a slab of pork, and wait a little while, you will see worms crawl out of it."

Ewwwww.... Who would want to eat that?

So, what do you think about Acts 10?

Shalom,

Reuel

[Nathaniel]

For some odd reason v.28 seemed to blinded to my eyes until tonight, or is it early morning?

I was even thinking of going into the whole break-out-the-greek-and-go-to-war-over-the-sheet-being-let-down routine. Our hand-picked "scriptural diets" are carefully planned aren't they? Interesting.

Nathaniel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Interesting facts on pork.... Thanks for sharing Nathaniel.

[Firestorm]

I'm not a pork eater. I don't digest it well for a start & the comparison to human flesh has always been a big turnoff. I do have to ask though, where some of these "facts" come from and how much of this information has been discussed in medical journals. The bit about worms crawling out of pork when Coke's poured on it sounds a little far fetched!

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Not too far fetched. For a time I worked in a meat department in a grocery store. Coke is a caustic substance and once it eats through the meat I don't doubt that you would see some worms. I saw alot of worms in meat that came through....

[Bob]

I discussed this passage with some friends this last weekend. When I explained the difference between unclean and common they stated they have never heard this before. One says she grew up around orthodox Jews. She stated that unclean meat was unclean meat. Her husband said that unclean and common is just a parallel.
Above Mark referenced Leviticus 11 but I didn't see anything regarding common. Is this an allusion in ?

[Tyler]

When God said to Noah and his sons in Gen. 9:3:

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things,"

it's my understanding that this frees Gentiles from eating kosher.

Later when the lists clean and unclean animals, it's my understanding that, in context, this was for the Israelites.

Perhaps, in Peter's vision, God was indeed also showing him it was okay to eat unclean meats since the Jewish apostles were to travel to the Gentiles. These Gentiles certainly didn't have kosher delis and the Apostles could not always carry their own food. True, Peter didn't go and immediately order a shrimp cocktail, but maybe that's because it grossed him out and offended his Jewish sensibilities.

Not that I think God was negating his own command. Perhaps he was implementing another command which superceded the food one. We know from Messiah's own words that David broke the command when he and his men ate the holy showbread reserved only for priests. Not that David was breaking the command but he was implementing one which superceded... that is to not starve as he was running for his life.

Perhaps (especially in regards to the New Covenant) love and life supercede and take precedence.

Ex. a surgeon can work on the Sabbath to save a life, or it is permitted to eat unclean if one is starving.

Maybe sometimes it is a graver offense to turn down a lovingly offered pork chop (say you are a missionary and you are being honoured with your host's best food) than it is to actually eat the pork chop.

I think even Rabbinic Judaism recognizes something along these lines, though I'm not sure of the source. That is they say, except for idol worship, murder and adultery, it is permissible to break every commandment if it is required to save a life.

Anyways, just my 2 cents. Hope I didn't cause too much of stir.

[Prodigal Girl]

"Maybe sometimes it is a graver offense to turn down a lovingly offered pork chop (say you are a missionary and you are being honored with your host's best food) than it is to actually eat the pork chop."

I don't buy that argument. It is the custom in some cultures to offer one's woman to guests. To carry the above logic to it's conclusion, you would accept the use of one's host's woman for the night, to risk offending him. To some of us, that idea seems scandalous and ridiculous.But so is the pork example, to one who knows and obeys .
One viable alternative, is to use the opportunity to demonstrate to your guests the difference between clean and unclean meats. They will survive the experience of being turned down, if you have genuine love for them and demonstrate it in other ways. We are to be salt and light to the world. Yes, we have to be concerned with offending, but there is a line that we are not to cross. I don't see Jesus going around and breaking so he would not offend anyone. He did go against some people's "traditions" however, in order to teach something. I think of that sometimes when I am faced with a tradition that is not biblical and definitely a questionable practice. Do I just give in, go along with the flow, or do I risk offending some, and break with tradition? Certainly you can explain your point of view, but decline to join in.
As far as your comment that all gentiles are required to do is the things listed told to Noah... think about it... is that the kind of world you live in, or would even want to live in?

[Mark]

Hi Guys,

The first thing you need to understand about the Greek language in this kind of text is something known as "Trench's Law". RC Trench (also known as JA Trench; but I think the JA is a title rather than a name. His first name was Richard.) was a Greek scholar in the early 1800s. Among other spine-riveting scholarly works we wrote a volume known as Synonyms of the New Testament. It is considered one of the most scholarly works and Trench has beenheralded as the "father of the 'Word Study' method of biblical research".

Trench's Law states that when two words are found in the same context (in Greek), it is their difference that is emphasized rather than their similarity.

So, the two words koinos (common) and akartatos (unclean) are found together in the text. If we follow Trench's Law (and we should) they cannot mean the same thing. Cantameter (the lovely flow of the sentence) is not an elemental factor of the book of Acts. Words are not added to make the text sound pretty. The word koinos was not simply thrown in there to make the verse sound better. In fact, the word "or" necessitates that we should draw distinction between unclean and common. "I never eaten anything unclean OR common."

Your friend is right that there would be no distinction made between unclean and common in modern Jewish circles. They wouldn't eat either. There is no need for distinction (in their mind); yet in their activity distinction is clearly made. They go to the supermarket and pick up "all beef" hot dogs. They inspect it and put it down then pick up another. Why? It's not marked with a K or a U or a scroll or a Star of David. It is not "unclean". Beef is okay; but it has not been scrutinized by the rabbinical authority that deternines it has met the full criteria of being kosher.

The word koinos is not found in the book of Leviticus. However, what is found is the criteria under which animals that are otherwise clean may be rendered unfit to eat. These animals later gained the distinction, though they were "clean" meats, were rendered unclean by their association. This status became known as treif, in Hebrew, translated koinos (common) in Greek.

In Genesis 9, we are quick to state that "every living thing shall be meat to you..." but we forget that this was stipulated "even as the green herbs." Not all green herbs were given to Adam to eat, were they? Obviously hemlock and sumac were not part of this inclusion. Noah already knew the distinction between clean and unclean (Genesis 7:2).

It is true that the distinction between clean and unclean was given only to the Jewish people. But, Messiah taught that the gentiles should be taught to observe all things whatsoever He commanded them. He commanded strict and consistent obedience to , leaving nothing out. It is so disappointing how selectively we bring up this distinction between Jew and gentile. The New Covenant was given to the Jews as well (Jeremiah 31:31).

We have been put in the position of being served unclean meats. Early in our pursuit of biblical obedience, we succombed to pressure. Yet, immeidately after the meal I was convicted with this thought, who should I be more concerned about offending, my friend or Adonai?

[Tyler]

Prodigal Girl, you are missing one important point... God did not give Peter a vision of many women and command him to commit adultery.

Listen... in the New Covenant there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile right? And the Kingdom of God is not about food and drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Not about food and drink... think about it.

I know Gentile brothers who are far more mature in their faith than me, even though they eat pork and I don't. They read the same Scripture and have the same Spirit. So, what's going on?

Do I disfellowship with them over food? Do I tell them they need to eat kosher? Then where does it stop? Do I tell them they need to be circumcised?

Anyway, food is a little issue that I believe everyone should work out in their own consciences between the Spirit and themselves. However, if you hate your brother or offend your brother for the sake of food then this is a big issue.

And just for clarity, the pork chop story was a real incident. I was a missionary in Indonesia and in a pastor's house (more like a shed) on some remote island (no tv, no electricity, had never seen white people before). This brother and his wife made a huge deal and served their best; this meant more than a little bit of rice. They served up some wild boar that they had caught. So... what do I do? The fact that I was a Jewish brother and didn't eat pork didn't register to them. This wild boar is the most food their house would see in a month, and in their culture it is an offense to turn down food.

What would you do?


I ate it. It was disgusting (tasted like cigarette butts dipped in hotsauce). Then we got on with the evening and the real business - preaching about Messiah.

[Prodigal Girl]

Hey Tyler,
Peter's dream was not about food. He did a great job explaining what the dream meant, in the chapter following the dream. I stick with Peter's interpretation of it and the 's explicit teachings about what is to be considered food and what is not to be considered food for those obedient to eat. I do not agree with the Catholic (and Protestant) churches which say his dream meant that now everyone can (and should) eat meats that are forbidden in the . That is a misinterpretation.
The Kingdom of God indeed is about righteousness, peace, and joy, but we still have to eat, etc., and we have been given instructions on the right way to do it. Righteousness means doing what is right in the eyes of God.
As far as eating and living in other cultures, I have been there, done that, including drinking blood freshly spilled, food sacrificed to idols, insects and snakes. So I do understand where you are coming from. If you do not agree that we should obey , then of course you should eat whatever you want, and not worry about being an example of what you don't believe anyway. However if it does at some point become clear to you that you should, then of course you have to determine under what circumstances you can "break" it. Is "offending" someone enough? There are all kinds of interpretations for this. And I agree, that can only be decided between you and Him.
In terms of someone being "more mature" than you. Our definition of being "more mature" is not what we should go by. We have to go by God's definition of what is correct behavior. And from what I understand from the scriptures, it is obedience coming from a heart that truly loves God, that is what He wants. And really only I and Him can really know if I am obeying Him or not. We can not determine our behavior by others' behavior. Just because someone who looks all spiritual and mature does something, that does not mean it is right for me to do.

[Prodigal Girl]

Mark, you are so patient!

[Tyler]

I agree Prodigal Girl, that he did a great job of explaining what the dream meant - that the dream was not primarily about food. But I don't know if I could say 100% that it wasn't about food at all on any level.

Also, I still maintain my first post on this subject that the states that all of Noah's descendants are permitted to eat whatever living animal they want. It isn't until Moses that only Israel is forbidden certain meats.

Is this distinction between Israel and the nations disappointing? Don't blame me. God didn't give Leviticus to the Chinese. However, He did give Messiah to the whole world. In Him there is neither Jew nor Gentile, etc. Circumcised or not, all have equal status.

Now this doesn't mean I believe Gentiles only need to do what was commanded to Noah. It just means that I believe God permitted Gentiles to eat unclean animals.

So what about when Gentiles were given full status along with the Jews as people of God? Well, it's a few chapters later in Acts 15. I suppose the Holy Spirit and the Apostles could have forbidden Gentiles to eat unclean animals right then and there, but... as far as I know it didn't happen.

So, do I go beyond the Holy Spirit, the Apostles, and the written Word of God in Acts 15? Do I tell Gentiles they can't eat pork; that it's a sin?

Do I offend or embarrass my brother in the Lord (and therefore Messiah Himself) for the sake of what they are eating with a pure conscience?

Do I judge myself more mature because of my correct actions when my pork-eating brother shows more maturity in their fruit (fruit of the Spirit)?

Now like I said, under normal circumstances, I don't eat unclean animals (as per my pure conscience). But I just can't bring myself to force my conscience on a Gentile brother whose pure conscience permits him to eat when the complete counsel of Scripture does not specifically forbid Gentiles from eating unclean animals.

Show me where Gentile believers are specifically and unequivocally forbidden to eat unclean animals and I will humbly accept correction.

Until then, my apologies for stirring the pot so to speak and offending anyone's sensibilities.

[Mark]

Tyler,

I think you should take a look here:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&n=1&thread=859