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Post by Todah Yeshua on Mar 25, 2004 22:29:27 GMT -8
It says that we are not to make any graven images or likeness of anything in heaven. what about all of the statues, figurines, and pictures of our Lord. Is it wrong to have these? Because we know that he is in heaven. It also says that we are not to make any graven image of anything in the water under the earth. Wouldn't that include fish? don't many people claim the fish as a Christian symbol? I would like to hear what everybody thinks about this question. Thanks.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 26, 2004 0:40:50 GMT -8
Todah Yeshua, Good, and valid question. Exodus 20:4 could not be a prohibition of simply images or figures. If it was...than The Temple itself would be in violation of this commandment.... "And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof." Exodus 25:19 And, the creation of the serpent on the pole by direction of YHVH would be a violation of His own command... "And YHVH said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live." Numbers 21:8 The key to Exodus 20:4 is found in Exodus 20:5-6... "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YHVH thy Elohim am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:5-6 One of the things that we see in this passage is that we are not to make images to serve them, or bow down to them. But, verse 6 is telling...For it makes the connection of serving a false elohim and it's commandments, and following YHVH and His commandments. You see, every Elohim has his set of commandments to follow. One of the ways we see which Elohim we are serving is by which commandments we are keeping. If we are in idolatry, and serving another elohim, this will evidence itself by a lifestyle that characterizes itself in rebellion to our Heavenly Father's . Shalom, Reuel
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Post by Todah Yeshua on Mar 26, 2004 8:02:53 GMT -8
Thank you Reuel, that really helped me a lot. I took Exodus 20:4 and 20:5 to be two separate commands in it's self. 1 Saying do not make them. 2 saying do not bow down to them. I thank you for using our Fathers word to show me the truth.
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 29, 2004 10:05:41 GMT -8
I found this old topic and it leads right into a study i am currently doing. I was under the impression that images of any kind were unacceptable. I am also studying symbols and have discovered that many supposedly christian symbols are actually pagan symbols. For example: the cross is a sign of sun worship typified by the egyptian ankh which is a cross with the sun on the top. I have read implications that anything nailed to a cross is a sacrifice to the sun god. This is an interesting quote from a web site: www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c7.htm This is one of the two commandments that religious organizations most often violate. It is very difficult to find a church in North America that does not display some object which is a likeness of a crucifix, dove, host, cross, burning bush, a saint, the Holy Family or some other entity found in heaven or earth. "...our churches are filled with them, from crosses to crucifixes to tabernacles to ambreys to icons to stations of the cross."
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 29, 2004 11:37:09 GMT -8
Shalom Frank,
All images could not be in view here as there are many sanctioned images that were in The Temple, and all throughout scripture. I do agree that there are many pagan symbols that Christianity has embraced. But, we must also remember just becuase a pagan has used a symbol does not mean that they thought of it first.
What is your view on Yeshua being nailed upon the cross (tree/stake)?
B'Shem Yeshua,
Reuel
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 29, 2004 15:40:16 GMT -8
Well... You have a knack for jumping right to the provocative questions. I am not one to give pat answers memorized or remembered for every occasion. I always give any answer some thought. An initial meditation on the meaning of the cross leads to two primary observations. On the surface it is a victory and triumph for Satan. The Messiah condemned by man, beaten, tortured, shamed, murdered, as a sacrifice to the false substitute sun god. In reality, God has again taken evil and made it serve His plan. The inflicted by the evil of this world becomes a testament to the love of God. Messiah endured the worst that evil could inflict and triumphed over it.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 29, 2004 18:46:49 GMT -8
Where does the scripture say that Messiah was sacrificed to the sun god? Please explain. Sorry if I am misunderstanding.
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 30, 2004 13:05:57 GMT -8
Scripture does not say it. It is a personal conclusion based on a study of symbols which indicates that the cross is a symbol of the sun god in many cultures before the first century including the Romans. Ceasar was himself a god and the sacrifice of criminals to the gods was considered valid retribution. Even the Catholic Church burned heretics at the "stake". The "pole" or "stake" also has a long history as a pagan symbol especially combined with fire. Even the documents the idolatry of sacred poles in groves.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 30, 2004 13:58:34 GMT -8
Shalom Frank,
Please forgive my enquiries in regards to this. But, Isn't it possible we can just take something like this out of context because of some of the similarities found between the two? For example wouldn't the serpent on the pole as commanded by YHVH to Moshe possibly be of pagan origin by the standards that you are using? Are there any historical documents that lend support to the Romans using execution stakes when executing crimininals for the purpose of sacrificing to the sun god? And, if not...should we really teach something doubtful like this with no scriptural support especially because it involves our Messiah's death?
These are just my concerns with statements like these.
Shalom, v'ahava b'Yeshua HaMashiach (Peace, and love in the name of Yeshua The Messiah),
Reuel
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 30, 2004 17:47:34 GMT -8
I understand your concern. I did not intend it to be a teaching. It is only a personal conclusion. Yes, part of my studies includes historical documents. As I said I have no intention of this being a teaching so I did not even consider trying to justify it with quotes from references. Actually all my replies were only to questions and certainly not things I would have proposed or even mentioned on my own. I suppose it would have been better if I kept my thoughts to myself. I often do that anyway.
As far as the cherubim over the ark or the snake on the pole, I obviously accept whatever God in His infinite wisdom allows but I would never presume to say something was allowed that He did not command especially when He commands against it.
I did not wish to speak against what you were saying, particularly when I am still studying and praying for understanding from the Holy Spirit. I could say much more but again I think it is better to keep my thoughts to myself, particularly when I have already aroused dissension and concern.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 30, 2004 18:33:26 GMT -8
Don't get me wrong brother, I appreciate your thoughts. And, I don't think that it is your intent to cause any dissension. We are all learning, and there are many more mysteries to discover, and I know that I myself have only begun to scratch the surface.
Shalom,
Reuel
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