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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 3, 2004 20:07:17 GMT -8
Many in Christianity draw a line in the sand when it comes to the "Church", and Israel. They strongly insist that the "Church" is not Israel. So whom is the "Church", and who is Israel, and when do you think the "Church" began?
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 22, 2004 11:08:56 GMT -8
I think it is significant you place the word "Church" in quotes. What is a "Church"? What "Church" are we talking about? Maybe your questions and mine are all dumb questions.
If you analyze it very carefully I think you might change the question to, When did the Messianic church begin? At first glance this seems silly. The Messianic church began with the Messiah.
This goes back to the question posed in the definition of this forum category. Did Yeshua start a new church? The first response might be: Of course He did! You can't put new wine in old wineskins. :-) But wait! Did Yeshua teach anything new? Of course He didn't. God's truth doesn't change. He taught the truth opposed to that which had been corrupted, discarded, expanded and twisted by the religious organization of His day.
The same thing has happened again. The modern churches have corrupted, discarded, expanded and twisted the truth.
The truth is that all true believers are Israel, Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 22, 2004 11:18:29 GMT -8
Amen brother All those whom are believers have become part of the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-13). Placing "Church" in quotes is significant because everybody has a different defintion for what the "Church" is. The Church (Congregation) has actually been around before Messiah was physically on Earth as there has always been a redeemed congregation of believers that have believed in the same truth. Shalom rav, Reuel
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Post by N2Messiah on Jul 4, 2004 20:52:21 GMT -8
Church in Greek means "called out" and is used to speak of those who came out of Egypt. In seminary I was taught that it started in Acts 2....
(Acts 7:36) He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
(Acts 7:37) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
(Acts 7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jul 5, 2004 5:02:01 GMT -8
Well the church begins with Noah. The first person "called out". The church was formally defined with the father of the nation of Israel Abraham.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 5, 2004 12:44:03 GMT -8
Welcome back N2Messiah! Yes, this is true. Thank you for sharing the scripture verses in regards to this. What seminary did you attend? Yes, this is another great example of the called out ones, or the assembly of believers/congregation/church. I bet that there were other examples of this even before Noah. What do you think? Shalom chaverim, Reuel
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Post by Mark on Feb 25, 2005 6:44:44 GMT -8
We've been taught to assume that the first mention of a thing in Scripture establishes its initial point of existance: that the "Church" didn't exist before Messiah because He said, "on this rock I TEXT build my church." Of course, they forget that the Greek word oikodomeyo also means to confirm or edify (I know, Yeshua was not likely speaking Greek anyway).
In the same way, it is argued that the Law didn't exist prior to Moses. Yet, we find observance of the Law as far back as Cain and Abel. Did you notice what these boys were doing when Cain got so bent? They were offering "firstfruits." How would they know to do that unless they had been given the Law? Noah understood the difference between clean and unclean. Why do we assume that this must have been all that he knew since Adam and Enoch walked with God?
The Church was established in Genesis 3; when man was given the choice to accept the mercy of God through the coming Messiah or exist as a mortal entity committed only to its own destruction.
The church is defined as the sons of God who began to intermarry with the daughters of men and became so small a remnant as the house of one righteous Noah. The church was consumated in the covenant with Abraham, that through him all the nations of the earth should be blessed. The Church was called out of Egypt and shared together the baptism of faith, passing through the Red Sea, forsaking the life of bondage that they had only known. The church sat and waited under the fig tree for Messiah to come, hoping for the One of whom Moses had written (Ref John 1:45-47).
Paul tells us that even in the days of Pharaoh there were vessels made meant for destruction and vessels made of honor. From the very beginning, it was God drawing unto Himself out of this world of sin those whom He would choose for Himself (Romans 9:17-18).
The Church of God, those who are called out to God for His purpose, has existed long before Acts 2. I would say man's church began not long after that, the church that places human interpretation above the life of Scriptures started and began to thrive early in that first Century; but God's Church has stood throughout all ages of history.
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Rut
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by Rut on Apr 11, 2005 20:34:02 GMT -8
We've been taught to assume that the first mention of a thing in Scripture establishes its initial point of existance: that the "Church" didn't exist before Messiah because He said, "on this rock I TEXT build my church." Of course, they forget that the Greek word oikodomeyo also means to confirm or edify (I know, Yeshua was not likely speaking Greek anyway). In the same way, it is argued that the Law didn't exist prior to Moses. Yet, we find observance of the Law as far back as Cain and Abel. Did you notice what these boys were doing when Cain got so bent? They were offering "firstfruits." How would they know to do that unless they had been given the Law? Noah understood the difference between clean and unclean. Why do we assume that this must have been all that he knew since Adam and Enoch walked with God? The Church was established in Genesis 3; when man was given the choice to accept the mercy of God through the coming Messiah or exist as a mortal entity committed only to its own destruction. The church is defined as the sons of God who began to intermarry with the daughters of men and became so small a remnant as the house of one righteous Noah. The church was consumated in the covenant with Abraham, that through him all the nations of the earth should be blessed. The Church was called out of Egypt and shared together the baptism of faith, passing through the Red Sea, forsaking the life of bondage that they had only known. The church sat and waited under the fig tree for Messiah to come, hoping for the One of whom Moses had written (Ref John 1:45-47). Paul tells us that even in the days of Pharaoh there were vessels made meant for destruction and vessels made of honor. From the very beginning, it was God drawing unto Himself out of this world of sin those whom He would choose for Himself (Romans 9:17-18). The Church of God, those who are called out to God for His purpose, has existed long before Acts 2. I would say man's church began not long after that, the church that places human interpretation above the life of Scriptures started and began to thrive early in that first Century; but God's Church has stood throughout all ages of history. TEXT Well put ! Thanks Mark
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Post by N2Messiah on May 23, 2005 9:38:56 GMT -8
Shalom All,
The word "church" was made artificially significant.
The first mention of the word is not in Matt 16:18 [ekklhsian] but rather Deut 4:10 in the LXX.
The word itself is used of not only Israel (the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt) but of lawful assembly's (religious and otherwise).
It is one more example of things taking on theological significance because of non-literal translation.
(Other examples: translating the word "food" as "meat" that has the side affect of putting words in Messiah's mouth. Translating "dogma" as "ordinance" thereby putting words into Paul's mouth. Translating sabbath(s) as week... For example the word for "week" in todays Greek is "ebdouman"....the word for "week" in the LXX is "ebdouman" ... If one wanted to say "first day of the week" in todays Greek they would say "protese hemeris tas ebdomodos"...the scripture actually says "mian sabbatwn" literally one sabbath(s).. When the "first day" - [protose hemeris - Mark 14:12] is the subject matter at hand the Bible attaches importance to it. Another example? Synagogue in Jacob 2:2 (there is no good reason to name that book James....) is translated company/assembly just to avoid the possibility that it appears "too Jewish")
While I am not advocating the LXX being more than it really is there are many examples where knowing how the Greek word was used in the LXX reveals how some words have been "pressed out of place".
Alvin
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Post by N2Messiah on May 23, 2005 9:42:31 GMT -8
Welcome back N2Messiah! Yes, this is true. Thank you for sharing the scripture verses in regards to this. What seminary did you attend? Tyndale...at home. Yes, this is another great example of the called out ones, or the assembly of believers/congregation/church. I bet that there were other examples of this even before Noah. What do you think? Shalom chaverim, Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on May 29, 2005 7:22:58 GMT -8
I believe that the "Church" had it's beginnings as the same time as Christianity. They both had their beginnings in 98 CE, with bishop Ignatius of Antioch. As for the KJV misappropriating the word "assembly" for "church," there are obvious theological reasons for their doing so. The truth of the matter is that from the giving of the in Sinai to the giving of the Ruach on Shavuot in Acts 2, the "assembly" has always been Am Yisrael. (As a sidenote, I find it interesting that the Ruach descended on the Talmidim on the anniversary of the giving of the . )
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