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Post by Nachshon on Jan 20, 2008 14:02:43 GMT -8
Hey, guys. I've been trying to translate the DuTillet version of the "Lord's Prayer" to compare it to the Greek and Aramaic versions. I'm having the hardest time figuring it out. The whole text can be found here. If anybody could help out I would greatly appreciate it. Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by Mark on Jan 21, 2008 6:29:52 GMT -8
Hi David, I would suggest going directly to Dr. Hegg with your specific questions. He is by no means unapproachable and I have found him very easy to understand in our one-on-one correspondences. Make sure that your questions are very specific, though, so that you can get a concise answer from him. Otherwise, it may be difficult for you to get a response from him at all, since he is as busy as the rest of us. The on-line Yeshiva through Resouce seems to be a very good educational tool and you may be interested in pursuing that, given your obvious passion to grow in your understanding of the Scriptures. The prices are very reasonable for the level of education that they are offering.
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Post by Nachshon on Jan 21, 2008 16:41:58 GMT -8
Thank you very much, Mark. I will send him an email.
I think I've looked at it before. I don't think I'm going to have time for that any time soon, though. I'm going crazy just trying to finish up my highschool career this semester, I'll be working like crazy this summer, and then starting college in the fall, so I'm pretty much swamped. But it does look quite good.
Shalom, David
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Post by jewishjediguy on Jan 26, 2008 2:15:04 GMT -8
Hey, guys. I've been trying to translate the DuTillet version of the "Lord's Prayer" to compare it to the Greek and Aramaic versions. I'm having the hardest time figuring it out. The whole text can be found here. If anybody could help out I would greatly appreciate it. Shalom, Nachshon Shalom Nachshon i would like to thank you for the link to Du tillet's Matthew Translation! i have been looking online and in books stores with no avail to find it, and to see for myself the addition of the name Av'ner to the genealogy. however the question still remains as to where he acquired this information since no one i have asked about it can answer me, "Where did it come from since there are no manuscripts other than Du Tillet's to confirm the legitimacy of this addition?" any hoo... i have here the translation of the prayer. it is word for word in order of the Hebrew: 6:9 Our Father / who is in the heavens / always holy / (is) Your Name. 6:10 Coming / (is) Your Kingdom, / being done / (is) Your will / as in heaven / and (also) the earth. 6:11 <ETH/untrans> Our bread / a measure(?) / give / to us / this day; 6:12 and forgive / of us / <ETH/untrans> our debts / like / we ourselves / have (the) intention / to those of / our debtors. 6:13 And do not / the leading of us / to the works of / temptation / but defend us / from all / evil; / for / to You / (is) the Kingdom, / and the strength, / and the splendour / for eternity, / and for eternities of / eternities. / Amen. granted, some of this is based upon personal preferences like "Splendour" for "Glory", and "Strength" for "Power", but i hope you find this helpful. i am not certain to its 100% accuracy though i am certain it is usable, because i am not at my usual computer, and i am without my books, this was done from the heart, my brother... may God's blessings always be with you, B'Yeshua, Yochanan
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 1, 2008 3:46:06 GMT -8
Thank you very much, Yochanan. Verse 12 was especially difficult for me. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. You're welcome for posting the link. I just stumbled across it the other day. I just about flipped when I found it. lol. I have the same question. Where did he get this Avner? It is correcting what appears to be a mistake to most people, the discrepency between the stated number of generations and the actual number, so I have a hard time imagining an antimissionary correcting that. I think that indicates that it is either a translation by a believer, or it is simply a copy of a much older textual tradition, which found its origin with a believer.
Shalom, Nachshon
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Post by jewishjediguy on Feb 2, 2008 1:28:41 GMT -8
Thank you very much, Yochanan. Verse 12 was especially difficult for me. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. You're welcome for posting the link. I just stumbled across it the other day. I just about flipped when I found it. lol. I have the same question. Where did he get this Avner? It is correcting what appears to be a mistake to most people, the discrepency between the stated number of generations and the actual number, so I have a hard time imagining an antimissionary correcting that. I think that indicates that it is either a translation by a believer, or it is simply a copy of a much older textual tradition, which found its origin with a believer. Shalom, Nachshon Shabbath Shalom Nach'shon, i have been doing research for many years about the genealogy of Mashi'ach and have found many interesting things. but in my search for meaning pertaining to the addition of Av'ner, i had come to a dead end until recently. a friend unwittingly showed me something about the Mashi'ach's authority as a King and the argument pitted against the anti-missionaries. within this argument something was revealed about the fourteenth name for the third part of the genealogy. here's what i read: Problem: if the family line could go through the mother, Mary does not qualify as being from a legitimate Messianic family. Since the Messiah must be a descendent of David THROUGH his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14; I Chron 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6). But Luke goes through David's son Nathan, not Solomon!
We must trace Mary's line through Matthew Chapter 1, and not Luke Chapter 3. When tracing Yeshua's genealogy in Matthew, the author refers to three sets of 14, or 42 generations until Yeshua. However, if we add up the generations, there are only 41. There is an explanation for this: The Joseph mentioned in Matthew 1:16 is the father of Mary, not the husband. Thus, Matthew Chapter 1 is actually describing Mary's lineage, and not Joseph's. This provides us with 42 generations.
Matthew 1:16 states, "Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary"...." Matthew 1:18-19 similarly provides, "Because Joseph her (Mary's) husband was a righteous man..." Based on this language, it appears the text is describing the same Joseph. This contention is reinforced by the Greek translation, where the word "aner" is used to describe Joseph in both contexts. However, when one examines the Aramaic version of Matthew, the Joseph mentioned in 1:16 is described as "gowra," a word used elsewhere in Matthew to signify "father". For example, the Greek translation of Matthew 7:9 provides, "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?". The Aramaic reads "which father (gowra) among you...."
The counter-argument is that Matthew was written in Greek and not Aramaic, thus, the point is moot. Historical evidence does not support this position. Papias, the Greek church leader who composed the earliest known information on the gospels, states that, "Matthew composed his history in the Hebrew dialect, and every one translated it as he was able." It is crucial to point out that Papias refers to the Hebrew dialect, and not the Hebrew language. The Hebrew dialect of the time was Aramaic.
Papias' contention is reinforced in Book V, Chapter 10 of his work, which discusses an Egyptian father named Pataneus who lived in the second century.The section provides: Pataneus went as far as India, where he appears to have found that Matthew's Gospel had arrived before him and was in the hands of some there who had come to know Christ. Bartholomew, one of the apostles, had preached to them and had left behind Matthew's account in the actual Aramaic characters, and it was preserved till the time of Pantaenus's mission.
The words "gowra" (Matt 1:16) and "baa'la" (Matthew 1:19) can both mean man or husband. Gowra, however, also means father (it is derived from a root word meaning strong one or protector). The question becomes, "Why would the author call the same Joseph a "gowra" in Matt: 1:6, and a "baa'la" in Matt: 1:9? The obvious answer is the author was speaking of two different men.Shalom b'Yeshua, Yochanan
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 3, 2008 7:35:33 GMT -8
Yochanan, I am familiar with this position. It is the official position of the COE. I first heard of it through the works of George Lamsa, I think.
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