|
|
Post by Mark on Jul 13, 2008 5:34:50 GMT -8
What did Messiah mean when He said, "I and My Father are One." in John 10:30?
|
|
|
|
Post by vegangirl on Jul 17, 2008 16:04:36 GMT -8
It means One! As in oneness. Adoni manifested in the flesh. We have one Adoin, Hes our king of kings and lord of lords!  |
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Jul 20, 2008 4:12:23 GMT -8
Messiah speaks to us in incomprehensible terms. He speaks of the Father as a separate entity; yet, inthe same context, declares Himself to be one with the Father.
In John 14:10-11, He says, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me", then in the very next verse He says, "I go to the Father." Either He hasn't very far at all to go, or there is something more that He is saying.
|
|
|
|
Post by vegangirl on Jul 21, 2008 14:14:47 GMT -8
I look at God as being One person. I have read on the Trrinty just last month. I can see why people believe it I also see oneness to. There is something more then hes saying he is saying I am ONE person manifested in the flesh .. Jesus is the son of God and of man .. But still only one person Adoni...
There are even Oneness Messianic's out there...
|
|
|
|
Post by Nashdude on Jul 23, 2008 6:07:33 GMT -8
There is plenty in the Bible to PARTIALLY support a Oneness view of God, but there's more to the story than that. "Oneness" doesn't account for the separation that is exhibited in many parts of the gospel.
1) Jesus' baptism. In that one scene, you have Jesus in the water, the Father speaking from Heaven, and the Holy Spirit decending upon Jesus in the form of a dove. All three aspects of the Godhead---appearing SEPARATELY, even though we agree that God is One.
2) The Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus appears transformed to His disciples, and they hear the voice of the Father speaking out of Heaven. Again, there is separation between the Son and the Father.
3) The Garden of Gethsemane. If "Oneness" is true, and there is no separation in God, then who was Jesus praying to? Why did He feel the NEED to pray, if He is praying to Himself?
I agree, there is indeed scriptural support for Oneness. There is also scriptural support for Trinity. What we have to do is recognize that neither explanation is completely accurate in itself. Rather, the description that comes the closest (IMHO) to accurate is Tri-unity.
In Tri-unity, both Trinity and Oneness are equally valid and accurate. God IS Three, and yet God IS One. It seems impossible to us, but then again, we are the created, and He is the Creator. Who are we to say what's possible and what's not? All I know is that the Bible describes God in BOTH ways, so both ways MUST be true!
|
|
|
|
Post by vegangirl on Jul 24, 2008 13:39:40 GMT -8
Yes, I believe Jesus was parying in human form to him self. Jesus for gave sins and healed people before Calvary so to me that makes him oneness! |
|
|
|
Post by Nashdude on Jul 24, 2008 21:32:39 GMT -8
And the Baptism?
And the Mount of Transfiguration?
What about this verse?
John 1:18 -- No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
As I said, there is scriptural support for Oneness, but to say that this is the ONLY doctrinal way to understand God---to deny the multiple facets of the singular God---is to forsake the many places in the Bible that describe the Trinity. The two doctrines MUST coincide someplace, else the Word is divided against itself.
|
|
|
|
Post by vegangirl on Jul 25, 2008 13:49:59 GMT -8
Nashdude: Where did I say that oneness is the only way to understand God? Adam and Eve seen God didn't they? I am not saying the trinity is wrong. I choose to believe in oneness more then trinity. Peace! |
|
|
|
Post by Nashdude on Jul 25, 2008 22:13:17 GMT -8
Where did I say that oneness is the only way to understand God? Oneness doctrine precludes Trinity, just as Trinity precludes Oneness. That's why I said that the two must meet in the middle someplace, as BOTH doctrines are absolutely true, but contradictory in themselves. Good question! Actually, the Bible never really says. It says that God walked with them, and that they heard His voice and felt His presence, but it never actually says that they SAW Him. The one that I would have expected you to bring out was Moses (Exodus 33). He saw God's backside on Mount Horeb, but even though the Bible says that he TALKED to God face to face, it explicitly says that he never SAW God face to face. That's cool. I wasn't calling your beliefs into question. I was refering to the scripturality of the two different doctrines, and that somehow or another they must meet in the middle, else one is true and the other false, leaving the Word divided against itself. |
|
|
|
Post by vegangirl on Aug 8, 2008 17:30:45 GMT -8
I will bet my life God is ONE>. Yeshua is Adoni... The most famous messianic prophecy: For unto us a child is born.. and his name shall be called wondeful counsellor , The mighty almighty , everlasting FATHER , prince of peace ISAIAH 9:6 Yeshua said I and the Father are one? Yeshua is identifying himself as the Father. I believe Yeshua prayed to the father in human form , we was giving us an example for us and not for him... Are most people Trinity? I am just wondering.. because I have never even heard of the trinity until I got out of the LDS church... |
|
|
|
Post by Prodigal Girl on Aug 9, 2008 4:33:14 GMT -8
Hi Vegan,
The word "trinity" is actually not even in the Bible. It is a word that theologians use to try to explain the issues we are discussing here. One problem with it is that it has been used by teachers who teach that Yeshua and the Father actually are different persons with different ways of doing things, a different Law, different purposes. Which is exactly the opposite of what Yeshua taught.
|
|
nasah
New Member
Posts: 49 
|
Post by nasah on Aug 9, 2008 5:49:17 GMT -8
Perhaps the oneness can be explained when Yeshua said this that He meant they were of one accord, of one heart, mind and soul so to speak. In other words I believe Yeshua was essentially trying to drive home the fact that He was, in fact being God because there was not one single way or thought or whatever in which they differed.
It would be like if i sent you my written word in a letter or e-mail concerning something, that word is me and represents me in a different form.
Just as it would be if my word suddenly became flesh, it would be me, representing myself.
It is interesting to note that the written word can't accomplish anything more than represent me in words, but not in action and deeds. Whereas the Word in the flesh could take action and do things on my behalf just after my heart soul and mind.
Makes sense? LOL
One, unified, but yet seperate.
Shalom,
nasah
|
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Aug 9, 2008 6:05:59 GMT -8
Did Adonai put the universe on auto-pilot when He died on the cross? If He did, the whole thing would have collapsed!
Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee.
(Nehemiah 9:6)
|
|
nasah
New Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by nasah on Aug 9, 2008 6:54:53 GMT -8
Mark,
What caused that particular response?
I guess i'm not quite sure if you're asking a rhetorical question, or if something that was said caused you to try and make a point.
I personally do not think that all of this means God put the universe on "autopilot", but rather He in His wisdom knew how things would work out, and as you posted in another thread God won't let us slip outside of His will, through His guiding us towards Him.
When someone does not abide in Him, then that person experiences death sooner or later.
It was just a matter of time for God's will to come about and His timing is perfect. I think it is evident He knew the perfect timing before hand. However He still had work to do in walking with us and guiding us.... this is why He never sleeps or slumbers.
Shalom,
nasah
|
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Aug 10, 2008 5:26:31 GMT -8
First, Nasah, I apologize what might have come across as something hostile toward your position. If you noticer the proximity between when your post was made, you were posting your comment as I was beginning mine, so I did not have the opportunity to read what you said. I thinkl your position is strongly defended.
First the word "one" is not "heis" but "en". This is a neutral noun which denotes an entangible concept: not one literally; but one in perspective, in agenda, in purpose. Secondly, the phrase states clearly that He and the Father ARE one, not IS one. In English, this is simply good grammer. In Greek, the word "esmen" is identifying two specific subject articles: the Father and Yeshua Messiah.
This text is, contextually, problematic. In John 10:34, he acknowledges that all of Israel should consider themselves "sons of God" in defense of His own confession. Is He down-playing His position as "the only-begotten of the Father"? He restates His position slightly differently in verse 38, saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me."
If you read through the threads discussing the doctrine of Trinity and Oneness, you will find that I am not antagonistic toward either position, and I certainly hold to Messiah's deity. However, this text ought not be used to defend these positions.
|
|
