Post by Mishkan on Dec 21, 2005 11:56:58 GMT -8
I received this article this morning in my email. I have received permission from the author to share his thoughts. I particularly like the illustration of divine nature versus the traditional Christian statement, "Jesus = God".
This article actually addresses two separate topics—the nature of Messiah, and the identity of "Netzari" groups in the first and second century. If anyone wants to break them out into separate threads for discussion, that would be fine with me.
I agree with everything in this article, and would be happy to entertain discussion and/or questions regarding its content.
Shalom,
Mishkan David
The Other Netzarim
By Yehudah ben Shomeyr
Not every one who calls themselves Netzarim are true Netzarim. Just as Christianity has its cults, Judaism has it cults too.
This is what Rabbi James Trimm has to say concerning the two sects of the Netzarim in his paper, "The Deity of Messiah and The Three Pillars of the Godhead" part 5:
So this "other" Netzari group (who basically come from the Ebionites) split off from the True Netzarim around 70 C.E. The two main differences I have found are that;
1. They believe Yeshua is the Messiah, but that He's not divine.
2. They hold to the doctrine of soul sleep (which we fully reject). That is when you die you are not conscious of anything until the resurrection. Your "soul sleeps" within your body until that appointed time.
One might say they are the Jehovah's Witnesses of the Jewish world; indeed they are similar in those respects.
I have noticed in their defense of trying to support their belief that Yeshua was not divine, they mostly quote resources from the late first century to modern day. Some of which was created as reactionary doctrine to allow Jews to further themselves religiously and doctrinally from Netzarim and Christians, and to keep them from concluding that Yeshua was indeed the Messiah. Most all rabbinical and kabalistic resources from the early first century on back continually speak of the Messiah being divine.
They tend to use the Greek translation of the Brit Chadasha (most of the time in the form of the King James Version) to attempt to back up their belief. The Greek Brit Chadasha and the English translation of it are riddled with translation problems to say the least, and should not be used to try to support Hebraic thought and interpretation. It is best to use Hebrew and Aramaic text of the Brit Chadasha.
We believe Yeshua Ha Mashiach of Nazareth is the prophesied Messiah of Israel. That He was FULLY G-D to be able to redeem us from our sins, and FULLY man to have the right to redeem us from our sins, to be our Kinsmen Redeemer (Ruth, Jer.17:5-7, Jn.1). Yeshua is the perfect, holy, sinless Messiah, the Son of G-D, who is the Word that became flesh and "sukkot, tabernacled," dwelt among us (Jn.1:14).
His flesh was not G-D; He is the "Lesser YHVH" which is an emanation of G-D as is mentioned in the Kabbalah, robed in the form of flesh. He was an emanation of G-D, who came to dwell in a mortal body that never saw corruption (Ps.14:10), a pure G-Dly being manifest in the flesh.
He was not an incarnation, which would denote that 100% of G-D came in the flesh. Yeshua was FULLY G-D in the flesh, but not 100% G-D. G-D is so infinite that He is everywhere and fills everything, so it would be impossible for ALL of G-D to be limited to a mortal body. Let me put in the words of Dr. Friedman, "If we were to go to the Mediterranean Sea and fill a glass with sea water, we can say that all the water in the glass is truly sea water. However we cannot call the glass, "The Mediterranean Sea." There is much more to the Mediterranean Sea than the glass. Yet, nonetheless, the water in that glass is truly Mediterranean Sea water through and through."
We believe that Yeshua, just as the Ruach Ha Kodesh, is an emanation of G-D. Yeshua is the Kohen Ha Gadol (High priest) who became the ultimate, once and for all atoning sacrifice Himself, for all mankind (Heb.4"14-5:10; 6:19-8:2).
We believe salvation is only available through Him. We believe Yeshua came first as Messiah ben Yosef (Joseph) the Suffering Servant, and will be returning as Messiah ben David the Kingly Messiah. We believe that these two pictures of the Messiah, given in Scripture are one and the same. As C.S. Lewis once said, "He is either a Liar, a Lunatic, or L-RD."
This article actually addresses two separate topics—the nature of Messiah, and the identity of "Netzari" groups in the first and second century. If anyone wants to break them out into separate threads for discussion, that would be fine with me.
I agree with everything in this article, and would be happy to entertain discussion and/or questions regarding its content.
Shalom,
Mishkan David
The Other Netzarim
By Yehudah ben Shomeyr
Not every one who calls themselves Netzarim are true Netzarim. Just as Christianity has its cults, Judaism has it cults too.
This is what Rabbi James Trimm has to say concerning the two sects of the Netzarim in his paper, "The Deity of Messiah and The Three Pillars of the Godhead" part 5:
The Minim
Now before beginning this section it is important to define an important Talmudic term MIN (singular) / MINIM (plural).
The fourth century "Church Father" Jerome writes of the Nazarenes and Ebionites:
Now Ebionites and Nazarenes were two distinct groups with varying beliefs (the Ebionites split off from the Nazarenes round 70 C.E.) but both of these groups were known by Rabbinic Jews as "Minim" or as Jerome calls them in Latin "Mineans".
Now before beginning this section it is important to define an important Talmudic term MIN (singular) / MINIM (plural).
The fourth century "Church Father" Jerome writes of the Nazarenes and Ebionites:
What shall I say of the Ebionites who pretend to be Christians? Today there still exists among the Jews in all the synagogues of the East a heresy which is called that of the Minaeans, and which is still condemned by the Pharisees; {its followers} are ordinarily called 'Nazarenes'; they believe that Christ, the son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary, and they hold him to be the one who suffered under Pontius Pilate and ascended to heaven, and in whom we also believe."
(Jerome; Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine)
(Jerome; Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine)
Now Ebionites and Nazarenes were two distinct groups with varying beliefs (the Ebionites split off from the Nazarenes round 70 C.E.) but both of these groups were known by Rabbinic Jews as "Minim" or as Jerome calls them in Latin "Mineans".
So this "other" Netzari group (who basically come from the Ebionites) split off from the True Netzarim around 70 C.E. The two main differences I have found are that;
1. They believe Yeshua is the Messiah, but that He's not divine.
2. They hold to the doctrine of soul sleep (which we fully reject). That is when you die you are not conscious of anything until the resurrection. Your "soul sleeps" within your body until that appointed time.
One might say they are the Jehovah's Witnesses of the Jewish world; indeed they are similar in those respects.
I have noticed in their defense of trying to support their belief that Yeshua was not divine, they mostly quote resources from the late first century to modern day. Some of which was created as reactionary doctrine to allow Jews to further themselves religiously and doctrinally from Netzarim and Christians, and to keep them from concluding that Yeshua was indeed the Messiah. Most all rabbinical and kabalistic resources from the early first century on back continually speak of the Messiah being divine.
They tend to use the Greek translation of the Brit Chadasha (most of the time in the form of the King James Version) to attempt to back up their belief. The Greek Brit Chadasha and the English translation of it are riddled with translation problems to say the least, and should not be used to try to support Hebraic thought and interpretation. It is best to use Hebrew and Aramaic text of the Brit Chadasha.
We believe Yeshua Ha Mashiach of Nazareth is the prophesied Messiah of Israel. That He was FULLY G-D to be able to redeem us from our sins, and FULLY man to have the right to redeem us from our sins, to be our Kinsmen Redeemer (Ruth, Jer.17:5-7, Jn.1). Yeshua is the perfect, holy, sinless Messiah, the Son of G-D, who is the Word that became flesh and "sukkot, tabernacled," dwelt among us (Jn.1:14).
"What we must keep in mind is that to rob Yeshua of His full deity (divinity) or His full humanity is to rob ourselves of our salvation."
Bikurei Tziyon, issue 71, pg.29
Bikurei Tziyon, issue 71, pg.29
His flesh was not G-D; He is the "Lesser YHVH" which is an emanation of G-D as is mentioned in the Kabbalah, robed in the form of flesh. He was an emanation of G-D, who came to dwell in a mortal body that never saw corruption (Ps.14:10), a pure G-Dly being manifest in the flesh.
He was not an incarnation, which would denote that 100% of G-D came in the flesh. Yeshua was FULLY G-D in the flesh, but not 100% G-D. G-D is so infinite that He is everywhere and fills everything, so it would be impossible for ALL of G-D to be limited to a mortal body. Let me put in the words of Dr. Friedman, "If we were to go to the Mediterranean Sea and fill a glass with sea water, we can say that all the water in the glass is truly sea water. However we cannot call the glass, "The Mediterranean Sea." There is much more to the Mediterranean Sea than the glass. Yet, nonetheless, the water in that glass is truly Mediterranean Sea water through and through."
We believe that Yeshua, just as the Ruach Ha Kodesh, is an emanation of G-D. Yeshua is the Kohen Ha Gadol (High priest) who became the ultimate, once and for all atoning sacrifice Himself, for all mankind (Heb.4"14-5:10; 6:19-8:2).
We believe salvation is only available through Him. We believe Yeshua came first as Messiah ben Yosef (Joseph) the Suffering Servant, and will be returning as Messiah ben David the Kingly Messiah. We believe that these two pictures of the Messiah, given in Scripture are one and the same. As C.S. Lewis once said, "He is either a Liar, a Lunatic, or L-RD."
, biased problem?
It's always slow at first.
and everlasting contempt.
