Choosing between obedience and life

[Mark]

When Moses came down from the mountain with the first tablets of stone, he smashed them on the ground, seeing that the people had turned to idolatry.

Aaron is nowhere judged by God for leading the people in this direction and for molding the golden calf.

Some of the sages teach that Moses broke the stones because it was a choice eitherthe stones or the people. If the law was brought into the presence of the people in their current state, they would have been utterly destroyed. Instead, Moses smashed the stones so that the condemnation would not come upon them (where there is no law there is no transgression (Romans 4:15)).

A traditional story tells of how the people first demanded an idol from Hur, who refused and was then killed by the mob. Aaron, fearing for his life, complied with their demands.

Both of these stories lend to the argument that transgression of when under duress (through torchur or threats against one's life or the lives of one's family) is not sinful.

However, the boldness and righteousness heralded in the Maccabbees, the three Hebrew fellows in the book of Daniel, ,and countless saints who have suffered for their convictions tells a different story.

When asked about this, myself, I only pray that I am never placed in such a position as to have to choose between the two.

[ryking]

You said a key word: "Both of these stories..."

The actual Scriptures give no such validation to the idea that we are to bend the Law according to circumstances.

Why did not Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah modify the Second Commandment when threatened with the furnace by Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3)?

Why did not the Messiah Himself pass the cup the Father gave to Him, choosing obedience and suffering over convenience and comfort (Luke 22:42)?

Beware the leaven of the pharisees... a little can leaven the whole lump. Allowing even one tradition of men to supersede a tradition of God can lead to a confused, chaotic conscience.

[alon]

Tough one. I think we have to be careful here on two counts- one is to be too critical, too set in stone in our own opinions and beliefs. If I had continued in thinking I had it all right, because that is how "I" was taught, I'd never have came to MJ. The other is in judicious use of sources other than the Bible.

It is true that Talmudic interpretations of Wayyiqra (Lev)18:5 and other scriptures tells us that other mitzvoth and Shabbat may be set aside to preserve human life. Yeshua Himself upheld this view when He referenced David's feeding his men the showbread to save their lives. He was specifically being challenged about allowing His disciples to shell out and eat wheat on Shabbat (Mat12:1, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1).

However this is one instance. Yes it validates the idea that some mitzvoth are higher than others, especially where human life is at stake. But does it give me license to pick the mitzvah I think (read that "want") to follow at the moment? Nah ... I'm not that qualified.

I firmly believe that very many alive today will be faced with the choice of denying God or death. It is happening now in many places, and will only get worse. I pray often for discernment to know, and courage to act when the time comes. That's probably the best thing we can do- that and study and seek wise council.

But that's just me, for what it's worth.

Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

I agree we cannot bend the law. I see the confusion as overlooking the grace of God who knows our weakness and our hearts and grants immediate forgiveness when we confess and repent.

[Questor]

I have always been taught that one must not deny G-d in order to save one's life, any more than one can bow down to false gods, or take the Mark of the Beast.

Because we are approaching that situation, as is evidenced alone by the rising up of Jewish believers in Yeshua - we can't have that 144,000 Jewish virgin believers as Yeshua's groomsmen without a large Messianic congregation - we need to mentally prepare ourselves for difficult times.

In the beginning of my days being taught by the Ruach haKodesh some 18 years ago, I was often troubled greatly by this, until the Ruach haKodesh used several demonstrations of peace and absence of pain and fear when praying and singing praise during medical procedures without anesthesia.

Whenever I think of the troubles that we may face, I remind myself of this, and that also that G-d can both preserve us from such difficulties, as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego found in the fiery furnace, or make it less fearsome and painful to undergo.

It has also been demonstrated that prayer literally blocks response to pain on PETscans of the brain.

Just as a quarterback rehearses in his minds eye the throwing and catching of a perfect touchdown, so we can visualize being presented with the problem, and our standing in the protection of YHVH.

I am one of those who are blessed (cursed?) with both night-visions and waking visions, and I was given a dream of being shot...in slow motion no less, and feeling only surprise as I watched a bullet approach and penetrate me, but also only the feeling of shocked surprise, and a thudding feeling as the bullet hit me...no real pain; and then the oddity of losing consciousness within the dream, while being aware of it. Weird, but I just remember Joel 2:28

Joel 2:28 (CJB)
28 “After this, I will pour out my Spirit on all humanity. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions;

I take these dreams and visions as teaching experiences at the moment, having no way to confirm their accuracy...I can tell you however, that night-visions are very different from dreams; and that waking visions seem oddly ordinary, even as you are aware that they are impossible, and yet happening.

I do recall, however, that one vision of Yeshua returning in the sky over Jerusalem was fascinating...I finally understood the fiery-ness and burning described in some visions...it was very much like watch a black and white photograph on fire. Quite fascinating, and one begins to understand the prophets trying to describe things that they had no reference for. Having the references of photographs, and video make it all a little more ordinary than one might think.

Please forgive my openness on this matter, but the information might be of use.

[Deleted]

Questor,

Yes, your info was of interest for me. And yes there is a difference in night dreams and having real visions while one is awake. I haven't had them for a while though. When I first started having them I didn't understand them, nor were they ever taught in the church. I learned later.

Moriah Ruth

[Questor]

Dec 22, 2013 17:57:30 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

Questor,

Yes, your info was of interest for me. And yes there is a difference in night dreams and having real visions while one is awake. I haven't had them for a while though. When I first started having them I didn't understand them, nor were they ever taught in the church. I learned later.

Moriah Ruth

I mostly find that they show me how YHVH is working on the planet, and that even though what I see is often unpleasant, and downright weird, it helps in explaining things at times...even if it does set me up for ridicule. I was never taught about much of these things either, particularly since I was not brought up in any church, or belief, or talk of G-d. I am fortunate that I was protected as I took a lot of bad years in the occult, where these things are gladly explained. I am grateful I never stopped looking for YHVH until He found me.

[Deleted]

Questor,

I know and understand what you are saying. However I haven't had the type of dreams that you have had. Mine were like warnings for me.

Moriah Ruth

[Questor]

Dec 23, 2013 6:16:34 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

Questor,

I know and understand what you are saying. However I haven't had the type of dreams that you have had. Mine were like warnings for me.

Moriah Ruth

I think that only a few of the dreams I have had were warnings, but mostly in the way of observing the occurrences of the dreams and what they warn me to be cautious of, by examining my soul to see if I am in any sin that might be related.

Others, are more prophetic in tone, and seem to be unrelated to me but not necessarily warning of a specific incident, but more of a series or type of incidents that are occurring, and how they are being accomplished and by whom, in some cases, and sometimes for what reasons.

Sometimes I think that I am given them because I can be open about having them, and thus encourage others to speak if they are told to speak, and not hold back. It is also true that I seem to know several people with similar gifts (curses?) that have them acting in advisory capacities to one or more pastors. Others see things that they do not wish to talk about for fear of being ridiculed, or not believed, while yet others are in total denial of the source of their dreams.

I know that Sh'aul wanted his talmudim to pray for the gift of Prophecy, but I am grateful that of yet I have no specific message for or about anything...except that I can say that it is not just the Earth that is groaning as we approach the Final Day, but that the whole universe is being shaken, or disturbed in ways that we will not be aware of until the Earth is made new.

I have to presume that some major changes will take place in how certain physical laws in the universe play out. It is true that I see a blending of more than one space/time or dimensional reality together...it is a pattern in many of my dreams over the years...but it is not something that seems to be needed for others to know in detail. They are fascinating, but again, except that many are in a pattern of related dreams that appear to progress from dream to dream, not exactly plain indications of anything that is to be in the now, or certainly not that I can discern now.

One thing I have come to understand very well, is that both dreams and visions are somewhat difficult to explain to others, as there is so much going on at one time that trying to write it down in detail is difficult, and speaking about it is even harder, though the pictures remain clear in my mind, and I know what dreams fit with others, or are part of a series of revelation on a specific topic.

The Prophets in the Bible seem to be having a good deal less difficulty as perhaps more control of their tongues and pens were being yielded to the Ruach haKodesh than I am able to open myself to. I do however know that there is no particular need for me to refuse to detail the visions to others, so long as they do not mind a certain amount of incoherence being involved...and of course the point that a purpose for the dreams has not been established outside of myself.

[Deleted]

Questor,

I understand totally of what you say. Sometimes dreams and visions are hard to explain. And when God reveals it to a person it takes learning to know exactly what the dream is about. Sometimes how we see it may not be how God gave it to us. And to even try to explain to others will only confuse the matter even more. Until God grants one the understanding than one is able to share it in detail.

Moriah Ruth