Pagan Origins of Christmas

[Tyler]

I realize this is probably preaching to the choir.

However the video linked below is a great resource for those of you who may have family members or friends who get sucked into this season of lies.

It's about 30 minutes long: video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3645112363868619851&ei=wso9SdC6E5ryqAOOqvyuCg&q=pagan+christmas&hl=en

Have yourselves a scary little mithras!

[dodi]

Thanks for the video.
I recently did a huge write up about the Pagan origins of Christmas and this fits right in.

[veggirl]

Tyler, thank you for the video,

This just goes to show the Messinaic faith is the closest to the bible.

My daughter 15 and son 13 watched the video together,
we new christmas is pagan, but I just didn't know how far pagan it went,,,
Wow thats pretty scary..

thanks so much
peace&love
Bri'gette

[vickilynn]

Shalom Mishpochah in Yeshua,

Hmmmm.

One things I don't see here is Romans 14 type of grace.

In our home, we celebrate the miraculous and joyful birth of the Messiah Yeshua! In the Brit Hadashah, in the telling of the facts of Messiah's birth, not only the angels rejoiced, but the shepherds!

"Glory to G-d in the Highest!"

We rejoice in the ACT of the Promised Messiah, the Lamb of G-d, becoming human!

We do not worship pagans or idols, but Yeshua HaMashiach and His Incarnation, which is believed to be at the time of the Feast od Dedication in the Winter (John 10).

BTW, there is no "Messianic" denomination that believes all the same things. Just get 3 Messianics in one room and you'll have 6 points of view!! LOL!

~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

[dodi]

Romans 14 doesn't say that we are to follow the pagans.

There is nothing wrong with rejoicing the birth of the Messiah but to do it on a pagan holiday is just wrong - in my opinion.

Rejoicing and praising Messiah should be done everyday and if you want to make a certain special time of year to do it, it should be done during the time of year that is now known to be the time of year that our Messiah was born which is during the Feast of Trumpets.

[vickilynn]

Dec 24, 2008 12:34:15 GMT -8 dodi said:

Romans 14 doesn't say that we are to follow the pagans.

Shalom dodi,

Pagans don't worship the Messiah!

No true Believer in Yeshua is doing anything remotely like the pagans, so yes Romans 14 applies specifically when Paul says that one person observes the day and another does not, but there must be GRACE and not judgement of Yeshua's servants!

There is nothing wrong with rejoicing the birth of the Messiah but to do it on a pagan holiday is just wrong - in my opinion.

Thank you. But in my opinion, your opinion is wrong.
Think of it this way. HaShem created ALL days.
If man does something evil on that day, the DAY itself does not become evil, only man's actions.

Rejoicing and praising Messiah should be done everyday and if you want to make a certain special time of year to do it, it should be done during the time of year that is now known to be the time of year that our Messiah was born which is during the Feast of Trumpets.

Actually dodi, according to the Scriptures, that is not the place of one Believer to push on another, since according to Romans 14, we each answer to our Master for what days we choose to observe as unto the L-rd.

You can choose to worship whatever days you wish, but when you insist on someone else doing it your way, that is wrong.

The Scriptures do not tell us when Messiah was born, (of course we can theorize) or that celebrating His birth in the Winter is wrong. Only man's opinion says that, and we are not bound by man's opinions.

Shalom b'Yeshua,
Vickilynn
MIcah 6:8

[dodi]

Dec 22, 2008 6:51:26 GMT -8 @vickilynn said:

One things I don't see here is Romans 14 type of grace.

We do not worship pagans or idols, but Yeshua HaMashiach and His Incarnation, which is believed to be at the time of the Feast od Dedication in the Winter (John 10).

Romans 14 is not giving us grace to celebrate the way we want. This is one of the scriptures that have been twisted out of context for people to use as an excuse. Romans 14 is in regards to the Jerusalem council mentioned in Acts. It has nothing to do with grace and doing what we want. It had to do with gentiles (who became believers) and Jews celebrating the feasts, following the and such. Not in regards to celebrating pagan based stuff or having grace to things other then what is in the .

John 10 doesn't say anything in regards to that being the time of year of the birth of Yeshua. If it didn't then the celebration of christmas would still be wrong and the celebration would then be during the Feast of Dedication which is Hanukkah. Which by the way doesn't always occur over the same date as christmas.

I didn't insist on anything. I just tell what the scriptures say and what others do with it is their business. Trust me Romans and other words of Paul have been torn apart and twisted to fit a lot of believers views when they want to support their way of thinking.

And yes, the scriptures do tell us when Yeshua was born. It doesn't say an exact date but it gives plenty of information to figure it out. Also, there is absolutely no mention of the Christmas holiday in the Bible. There is even scripture coming against the practices that are done during the Christmas season. The Bible even mentions that when we are all finally in Heaven with Yeshua and Elohim that the only "holidays" that will be done will be the Biblical Feasts. So, where's your Christmas there?

You're right that pagans don't worship the Messiah but why would you use their pagan holiday to worship the Messiah? Look at who the source is that made the pagan holiday Messiah's birthday (Catholics) - that should answer the question right there.

[vickilynn]

Shalom dodi,

Actually Romans 14 tells us that G-d is Who we answer to for our worship, not other people.

And if a Believer is worshiping Yeshua's birth on Christmas, it is wrong for another Believer to tell them it's wrong. GRACE, that is what Romans 14 is all about, grace that is lacking in people who jump on others for their worship.

As to the pagan origins of December 25, again, that is not true.

Again, the days were created by HaShem, including December 25th. Since G-d does not create evil the day itself it not evil, so worhiping Yeshua's birth on this day is not wrong. The day itself is pure and holy and so is a Believer's worship. And those that judge another's heart concerning their worship (according to Scripture) are sinning.

The Scriptures do not tell us the date that Yeshua was born. We can theorize and assume, but there is no definitive Scripture which gives us a date.

Also, according to Romans 14, Yeshua should be (and can be) worshiped on any day and every day! We celebrate His onwderous birth and rejoice as the Shepherds and Angels did! Hallelujah!

You misread my words, I never said Yeshua was born in the Winter. I said his INCARNATION occurred in the Winter (Feast of Dedication - John 10) and we are celebrating that miraculous act as well as His virgin birth.

However, the date is not important, according to the correct understanding of Romans 14, it is the ACT and how the Believer relates to their G-d in worship.

Actually, there are quite a few Scriptural references to celebrating Messiah's birth! And that is what is celebrated.

Once again, just because man perverts something of G-d does not make G-d's creation perverted. Are you afraid of pagan's idols? Then Scriptures say they are nothing and our G-d is WHO we should be focused on. Paul even addressed the idol question when people refused to eat food.

1 Corinthians 8
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no G-d but one.

5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),

6 yet for us there is but one G-d, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Yeshua HaMashiach through whom all things came and through whom we live.

You choose not to celebrate Christmas, that's your choice and I respect it. However, the Scriptures state that it is not correct to tell someone else not to celebrate. You should respect their choice as they 0we) answer to G-d, not man.

~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

[Prodigal Girl]

To Vicki:
1) You stated: "Actually, there are quite a few Scriptural references to celebrating Messiah's birth! And that is what is celebrated."

Vickilynn, where are these scriptural references? I am unfamiliar with even one that refers to celebrating Messiah's birth (as a holiday).

2) You also stated: "I said his INCARNATION occurred in the Winter (Feast of Dedication - John 10) and we are celebrating that miraculous act as well as His virgin birth".

John 10 does not refer to His incarnation being on the Feast of Dedication. In that scripture, He is baptised, but I would not see that as His incarnation date. His incarnation was when He was conceived.

3) You stated: "No true Believer in Yeshua is doing anything remotely like the pagans" Ha, that is a laugh. There are many, many instances, unfortunately, of true believers IN THE BIBLE who do things that are very pagan-like. The study of scripture teaches pagans who come to G-d what they are not to do, and what they are to do, now that they are following Him. None of us is perfect, we are all learning. Even when we have an unkind thought, or pride in our hearts, or even fail to act when we should, we are behaving in a pagan manner. We are all learning to walk a new way, to speak a new way, to think a new way.

Have you watched the video, linked in the first post? That might give you background as to where some of us are coming from in our attitudes, including ambivalence, towards the celebrating of Christmas. It is not a biblical holiday. So should we celebrate it anyway? Why? I (and others) personally see more cons than pros. At the very least, this holiday is very, very suspect, and its continued practices by those who say they want to follow Yeshua, very much open to debate. Discussing this issue does not make us lack grace. However, there is a hue and cry of legalism whenever there is any hint that Christmas traditions are threatened, even in an on-line discussion. So often we do things, have certain practices and habits that we find later on in our walk, that Yeshua is calling us to abandon for better things, that are more in line with HIS priorities. I think He speaks to us at different times in our lives about different things, mostly because we can not handle the truth all at once. We get the message when we are ready to hear it. I believe that is the way it is about many practices; we become more mature, and in time just drop off some things in favor of others that are more of a priority. Is the Christmas celebration thing what we should be focusing on? I just see no scriptural support for this, and others here have noticed the same thing. Sometimes also it is a choice between good, better and best use of our time and attention and energy. The whole Christmas celebration thing hogs up way too much of all of those, and in my opinion is possibly a worthless, and therefore harmful, thing. It is unfortunate however that historically and still in the present, it is dangerous to state such opinions.

[vickilynn]

Dec 27, 2008 19:00:20 GMT -8 Prodigal Girl said:

T
1) You stated: "Actually, there are quite a few Scriptural references to celebrating Messiah's birth! And that is what is celebrated."

Vickilynn, where are these scriptural references? I am unfamiliar with even one that refers to celebrating Messiah's birth (as a holiday).

Shalom PG,

I see you quoted me. I appreciate that.
It usually helps people from "reading into" words something that is not there.

Like you asked "as a holiday." Did I say it was celebrated as a "holiday"? No PG, I said the Scriptures showed angels and Shepherds celebrating the birth of the Messiah, and thus provided Biblical precedence and example.

And these celebrations give us the Biblical basis for US doing the same.

2) You also stated: "I said his INCARNATION occurred in the Winter (Feast of Dedication - John 10) and we are celebrating that miraculous act as well as His virgin birth".

You seem to have misunderstood me again PG. Perhaps I am not clear in my posts and I apologize. I was saying that John 10 spoke of the Feast of Dedication, not that Yeshua was conceived THAT year! :PLOL! But rather He was conceived years before, possible during the Feast of Dedication which is spoken of (The Feast that is) in John 10. Does that make it clearer?

Was Jesus Conceived on Hanukkah?
biblicalholidays.com/Hanukkah/messiah_in_hanukkah.htm

Many believe that our Messiah, the “light of the world,” was conceived on the festival of lights—Hanukkah. The Bible does not specifically say the date of Jesus’ birth. It was not during the winter months because the sheep were in the pasture (Luke 2:8).

A study of the time of the conception of John the Baptist reveals he was conceived about Sivan 30, the eleventh week (Luke 1:8-13, 24). Adding forty weeks, for a normal pregnancy reveals that John the Baptist was born on or about Passover (Nisan 14).

Six months after John’s conception, Mary conceived Jesus (Luke 1:26-33); therefore Jesus would have been conceived six months after Sivan 30 in the month of Kislev—Hanukkah. Was the “light of the world,” conceived on the festival of lights? Starting at Hanukah, which begins on Kislev 25 and continues for eight days, and counting through the nine months of Mary’s pregnancy, one arrives at the approximate time of the birth of Jesus at the Festival of Tabernacles.

3) You stated: "No true Believer in Yeshua is doing anything remotely like the pagans" Ha, that is a laugh. There are many, many instances, unfortunately, of true believers IN THE BIBLE who do things that are very pagan-like. The study of scripture teaches pagans who come to G-d what they are not to do, and what they are to do, now that they are following Him. None of us is perfect, we are all learning. Even when we have an unkind thought, or pride in our hearts, or even fail to act when we should, we are behaving in a pagan manner. We are all learning to walk a new way, to speak a new way, to think a new way.

That is far different than someone "worshiping" pagans or acting as pagans do. I'm sorry PG, this just isn't Scripture and I don't agree that we all act as pagans when we have an unkind thought. That's not what the Scriptures state. They state we are walking in the flesh when we have an unkind thought.

Pertaining to celebrating the birth of the Messiah is something I have studied for more than 34 years and I have come to the conclusion that it is a good thing and our family WILL celebrate it, as unto the L-rd, whether anyone else outside our family agrees or not, since we answer only to G-d and not men.

[Prodigal Girl]

vickilynn,
Quote:
2) You also stated: "I said his INCARNATION occurred in the Winter (Feast of Dedication - John 10) and we are celebrating that miraculous act as well as His virgin birth".


"You seem to have misunderstood me again PG. Perhaps I am not clear in my posts and I apologize. I was saying that John 10 spoke of the Feast of Dedication, not that Yeshua was conceived THAT year! :PLOL! But rather He was conceived years before, possible during the Feast of Dedication which is spoken of (The Feast that is) in John 10. Does that make it clearer?"

OK, now I understand that you meant that you think that Yeshua was born in the wintertime, around the time of the Feast of Dedication, the Festival of Lights. I had heard that opinion before but fail to see the scriptural support for this. I have more often heard the opinion from Messianics that Yeshua was born in the springtime, during Sukkot. I believe one rationale for this, is because shepherds do not have their flocks out in the field during the wintertime, due to lack of growing things to eat in the field at that time of year.
Celebrating the Feast of Dedication, the Festival of Lights was controversial in rabbinic writings also. Are we to celebrate only the days taught in the first five books of the Bible? If so, we then need to not celebrate birthdays of family members. What I see written in the , is only that we need to NOT celebrate Pagan holidays. Christmas traditionally up until the few centuries, especially up to the last couple of centuries, is a holiday well recognised to have Pagan origins and practices. That is why some are understandably hesitant to observe it. Also the fact that it is not mentioned as a holiday and that it was not celebrated as a holiday in the early church, not celebrated until much, much later.

I would agree with your last statement, that we answer, in the end, only to G-d.

[jimmie]

I was wondering if we are free to worship God any way that we want as has been proposed above by Vicki, does God need to apologize to Cain for not accepting his sacrifice? May the drunkard and glutton say “I am eating and drinking unto the Lord. I have no fault in me.”? They are after all only accountable unto God, and if they are doing it unto the Lord, who am I to warn them differently.

Matt. 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Why would anyone want to hold on to the old possession of X’mas when it should be sold in order to bye the true possession of God’s Holy days.

[lawrenceofisrael]

It´s really if you sometimes see people who try to misinterprete and misquote Shaul (Paul) in order to prove their beliefs and practices which are wrong and forbidden according to the scripture.
We are to worship and serve the almighty in the way he asked us to and not put our own ideas and thoughts into it. the creator says: keep my holy days, he didnt say keep the days of the pagan disbelievers and he said in deuteronomy 4 verse 2 that we shall neither add nor take away anything from his commandments. So to all those who do that, fear the almighty and know that he is not someone to play with.
The statement that one might celebrate christmas is not only completely wrong and has no backup in the scripture but it is also an insult to the name of yeshua and the father.
I however pray that the almighty may forgive my sins and the sins of my brothers and sisters and i also pray that he´ll guide you, vicky, to the narrow path and through the narrow gate.
Please do not accept what you like or wish to be the truth and don´t use the writings of our wonderful apostle Shaul for proclaiming these things but rather look at them in their historical context and their linguistic context.

To all my brothers and sisters may peace and blessings b´shem yeshua be upon you.

[Yedidyah]

Mar 24, 2013 18:48:17 GMT -8 @believer said:

Greetings:

How come there is so much division in the Body of Christ?

Please correct me if I am wrong but there was only 4 things that the Apostles at the council said for gentiles to worry about.

Acts 15:20: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:29: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 21:25: As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Please why does every church I attend whether: Protestant, Messanic, Catholic, SDA, LDS, Church of God, JW, Apostlic and Angelican.

You all have one thing in common that is that only your church is the closest to Biblical Christianity. I am sorry every single one of these churches get a F in tolerance and true biblical christianity.

We are the temple of the Living God not a building or a man made religon. Don't get me wrong I enjoy going to church i have been looking for a church for over 18 years since I got saved and accepted Christ into my heart. The one thing that really upsets me is that If the Body of Christ (All Believers) can not get along how do you truly expect to bring the unbeliever into the body.

There is only one thing that Jesus is concerned about to seek and to save that which is lost, if you are not active in that then how can you even begin to judge one that is.

If we look at the scripture in full you can clearly see that there is more to this then what was posted.
Lets look at Acts 15:20-22
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”

The was read every Shabbat. The people being grafted in would then be learning everything else in the Synagogues of the day. It was not until the gentiles split off and started their own religious circles was this even an issue. Easter, Christmas and just about all the others are from Pagan starts and we are commanded not to mix the holy with the profane.
Ezekiel 44:23
23 “‘They are to teach my people the difference between holy and common and enable them to distinguish between clean and unclean."
We are not doing what we are called and commanded to do if we continue to sugar coat the bible into a one size fits all sin package. You can find the same traditions with Christmas found on the main Wiccan web sites also. There is only one for Jews and former Gentiles who have been adopted.
Some more verses to think about,

Isaiah 56:2-11


2 Happy is the person who does this, anyone who grasps it firmly, who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it, and keeps himself from doing any evil. 3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, "ADONAI will separate me from his people"; likewise the eunuch should not say, "I am only a dried-up tree." 4 For here is what ADONAI says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant: 5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples." 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra'el's exiles: "There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already." 9 All you wild animals, come and devour, yes, all you animals in the forest! 10 [Isra'el's] watchmen are, all of them, blind; they don't know anything. They are all dumb dogs, unable to bark, lying there dreaming, loving to sleep. 11 Greedy dogs, never satisfied - such are the shepherds, unable to understand; they all turn to their own way, each one intent on his own gain:

Isaiah 65:2-11

2 I spread out my hands all day long to a rebellious people who live in a way that is not good, who follow their own inclinations; 3 a people who provoke me to my face all the time, sacrificing in gardens and burning incense on bricks. 4 They sit among the graves and spend the night in caverns; they eat pig meat and their pots hold soup made from disgusting things. 5 They say, 'Keep your distance, don't come near me, because I am holier than you.' These are smoke in my nose, a fire that burns all day! 6 See, it is written before me; I will not be silent until I repay them; I will repay them to the full, 7 your own crimes and those of your ancestors together," says ADONAI. "They offered incense on the mountains and insulted me on the hills. First I will measure out their wages and then repay them in full." 8 Here is what ADONAI says: "As when juice is found in a cluster of grapes, and people say, 'Don't destroy it, there is still some good in it,' so I will do likewise for the sake of my servants, and not destroy them all. 9 I will bring forth descendants from Ya'akov, heirs of my mountains from Y'hudah; my chosen ones will possess them, and my servants will live there. 10 The Sharon will be a pasture for flocks, the Akhor Valley a place for cattle to rest, for my people who have sought me. 11 "But as for you who abandon ADONAI, who forget my holy mountain, who prepare a table for a Gad, a god of luck, and fill bowls of mixed wine for Meni, a god of destiny

[alon]

Mar 24, 2013 19:19:28 GMT -8 Yedidyah said:

If we look at the scripture in full you can clearly see that there is more to this then what was posted.
Lets look at Acts 15:20-22 ...

The was read every Shabbat. The people being grafted in would then be learning everything else in the Synagogues of the day. It was not until the gentiles split off and started their own religious circles was this even an issue. Easter, Christmas and just about all the others are from Pagan starts and we are commanded not to mix the holy with the profane.

Ezekiel 44:23 ...

Isaiah 56:2-11 ...

Isaiah 65:2-11 ...

And I would add that Yeshua, far from being single minded about seeking and saving the lost also was a rabbi, a teacher of right and wrong. I'm afraid He too would have gotten an "F" in tolerance. Just ask some of the religious leaders He berated.

Dan C