dodi
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Post by dodi on Nov 23, 2008 17:24:16 GMT -8
I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the correct place. If I'm not, I apologize.
My question is:
Do the Messianic believers believe in the gift of tongues? If so, is it still in use or not?
I'm asking because I have been seeing a discussion elsewhere that is ending up saying that this gift is no longer in use and the reason being given is geared towards a replacement theology that I don't like at all.
I was just wondering what the thought from all of you here would be on this.
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Post by Mark on Nov 24, 2008 7:16:14 GMT -8
HI Dodi, See if the discussion here answers what you are looking for theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=728We can continue this discussion here, though, if you like. It is always a flag to me when the earliest examples of a doctrine appear in the New Testament. Usually this means that the interpretation has strong pagan influence from non-Jewish origins. This would make it inconsistent with the Messianic faith. Mark
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dodi
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Post by dodi on Nov 24, 2008 8:31:39 GMT -8
Thank you for that link. I will read through it very soon.
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dodi
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Post by dodi on Nov 24, 2008 9:08:36 GMT -8
Just read through the thread and it helped a lot - Thank you!
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 22, 2008 6:57:07 GMT -8
Shalom dodi,
I just wanted to mention that Messianic Jews do not all believe the same things, the way that Christians do not all believe the same things.
Some Messianics do believe the gifts of the Ruach HaKodesh are in effect for today (including speaking in tongues) and some do not.
~~In Messiah Yeshua, Vickilynn Micah 6:8
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Post by ganeden on Dec 31, 2008 23:32:05 GMT -8
My questions is; where in the Tenach is tongues mentioned, as it seems to just be a NT "thing"?
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veggirl
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Post by veggirl on Feb 17, 2009 17:59:01 GMT -8
I have been told that if people don't speak in tongues that you go to hell, I don't know what I believe on that.. but I do know that the holy spirit is talked about all over the book of acts. I am thinking it would be something we can't live without? How would someone know if they had the Holy Ghost? if they didn't speak in tongues.
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Post by Mark on Feb 17, 2009 19:48:07 GMT -8
How does speaking in tongues validate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Is it not a presumption that the evil one is not able to duplicate such a sign?
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veggirl
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Post by veggirl on Feb 18, 2009 5:26:15 GMT -8
Acts 19:2 Paul asks Have they received the Holy Ghost since they believed. He said he would send the Comforter back for us , the Holy Ghost
It looks like to me that , thats Gods seal for his people to have the Holy Ghost, to speak in tongues?
After attending a pentecostal church for some time I can see how satan could duplicate such signs. Some thing there was different some times I even felt a different spirit! It was worse there then in the Mormon church.
What are your views on the speaking in tongues? Do we need it to go to hell or not? After being told so many times you need the holy ghost to speak in tongues to get to heaven, its hard to get out of my head.
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Post by Mark on Feb 18, 2009 19:15:42 GMT -8
In 1st Corinthians 12:30, Paul asks if all (believers) speak in tongues presuming a negative answer. Not all believers speak in tongues. In 1st Corinthians 14:5, he says that he wished that they all spake with tongues, thus definitively declaring that we all do not. Messiah said that is according to our "fruits", in context, our mitzot, or obedience to , that men shall know whether they be of the Kingdom of God or not. (Matthew 7:16, 20). In John 13:35, he declares that men shall know that they are His disciples by their love. Speaking in tongues has its place and we must not forbid the empowerment to worship Him in this context (1st Corinthians 14:39); but to establish it as the litmus for the presence of the Spirit of God is not viable.
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veggirl
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Post by veggirl on Feb 20, 2009 15:45:21 GMT -8
Paul, having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus. And finding certain disciples, he said unto them, ‘Have ye received the holy Ghost since ye believed?’ And they said unto him, ‘We have not so much as heard whether there be any holy Ghost.’ And he said unto them, ‘Unto what then were ye baptized?’ And they said, ‘Unto John’s baptism.’ Then said Paul, ‘John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.’ When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the holy Ghost came on them, and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.” (Acts 19:1-7)
I need to study this a lot more, from what I have read so far, it seems like we need to speak in tongues, Gods seal to us like satan has a seal for his people. I just don't know for sure.
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Post by yeshuafreak on Apr 3, 2009 11:20:31 GMT -8
Toungues is scriptural... its the exact meaning of toungues that needs clarifying.
i think that there are 3 types of toungues. (same as the pentecostal theology, just i think the way they apply the gift is unscriptural, and where they apply the categories of toungues, more on this later)
also notice the words in italics in corinthians, if you are reading KJV, (italics means that the word is not actually in the greek)... there is a verse that has the word 'unknown' in italics and it changes the meaning of the verse. this type of stuff is exactly what causes people to misunderstand doctrines like this.
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Post by youneverletgo on Apr 3, 2009 14:56:51 GMT -8
Acts 19:2 Paul asks Have they received the Holy Ghost since they believed. He said he would send the Comforter back for us , the Holy Ghost It looks like to me that , thats Gods seal for his people to have the Holy Ghost, to speak in tongues? After attending a pentecostal church for some time I can see how satan could duplicate such signs. Some thing there was different some times I even felt a different spirit! It was worse there then in the Mormon church. What are your views on the speaking in tongues? Do we need it to go to hell or not? After being told so many times you need the holy ghost to speak in tongues to get to heaven, its hard to get out of my head. The Holy Spirit Himself is the seal, not the ability to speak in tongues. Satan certainly can duplicate all of the spiritual gifts. That is why it is dangerous when believers focus on the gifts rather than the Giver. When people start preaching gifts instead of the gospel, then they open themselves up to being deceived. Satan and his demons can create counterfeits of the real spiritual gifts. In Revelation it says that the false prophet of the Anti-Christ will even be able to call fire down from heaven. TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. As we get closer and closer to the end, there are going to be more and more false prophets who can perform great signs and wonders. People are going to get led astray because they are looking for the gifts and they throw out discernment. In many ways, this is already happening in some Pentecostal and charismatic circles. Look up Todd Bentley and the Lakeland "revival" last year. Ever heard of gold dust, angel feathers, angel orbs, and oil oozing out of people's skin? This stuff is not biblical, but these things are false signs and wonders. Because people are so eager for signs and wonders, they are believing almost anything. I do not believe that all of these phenomenons are tricks, as some people suggest. I think they are real, and that God is allowing people to be deluded by it because they have stopped looking to Him. Instead they are looking to angels and to spiritual manifestations. There is a counterfeit sign of tongues. There has to be. There was a cult leader on MySpace who claimed to be an Apostle. She was recruiting people into her cult, telling them that they could only understand the Bible if they were properly instructed by her or another Apostle. The stuff she was teaching was flat out wrong. She was getting people to rely on angels and she was teaching another gospel. She and her students all spoke in tongues, and they taught that it was necessary for salvation. Paul never taught that tongues were necessary for salvation. In fact, he listed it as least among the gifts. He was annoyed with people in the Corinthian church for making tongues a huge deal. I do believe that the gift of tongues is still available today, and that believers certainly can receive it, but it is NOT the only spiritual gift. Nor is the manifestation of any gift necessary to enter heaven. The Holy Spirit gives different spiritual gifts to different people, according to His will. If He wants to give someone tongues, then they will get it. If they ask for it, maybe He will give it to them. However, just because He DOESN'T give it to them does not mean that they are not saved. Tongues (or any other spiritual gift for that matter) should never be used as a standard to measure how "Christian" someone is, or how "spiritual" they are. It should NEVER be used to measure someone's salvation. The reason it is dangerous to use tongues (or other gifts) as a means of "proof" of salvation is this -- what if someone comes into a church (or, for most on this forum, a messianic synagogue), and displays all sorts of signs and wonders. Let's say they can speak in tongues, but their theology is way off. This person does not even say much about Jesus. However, they talk about angels a lot. Among those who believe that tongues is needed for salvation, they would be accept this person as a teacher because of his ability to speak in tongues. A lot of people could be led astray. All a person would need to do in order to be accepted by that group of Christians would be to speak in tongues.
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veggirl
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Post by veggirl on Apr 17, 2009 9:47:30 GMT -8
I know for sure the UPC believe you either speak in tongues or go to hell., and if you don't speak in tongues after some time then you're not accepted at all. I am sure theres other churches that believe this also but I don't know there names. So : ( youneverletgo: I really liked what you had to say about this topic, Thanks : ) I like other peoples views also, and my own and most of all learning how the bible teaches.. Peace&love Bri'gette
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