Which of the 613 are still mandatory?

[applecore]

Greetings,

The idea that the is still to be observed is new to me, so forgive my naivety on this matter. I gather anything connected with the Temple is now obsolete (in the Earthly realm anyway) so all precepts concerning the priests, sacrifices, being ceremonially unclean etc have passed (as also hunting down Amalekite descendants I presume!). My question is twofold;

1. Specifically, which of the 613 commandments are STILL to be kept? and

2. Do the commands that are still to be kept fall under the curse of Deuteronomy 27:26? Or to put it another way; does the curse still apply after Messiah?


Thanks for reading,

Craig

[Mark]

Hi Craig,

This is a really good question, and you will find a number of different answers from very respected scholars within the Messianic community.

First, though, if you had the time to spare, it would be a revealing exercise to do a Google search on "List 613 mitzvot" and print out the first five or so listings that are given. If you were to study those lists at all, you will find that they are probably not the same: that there are different commands recorded, defined by extremely diverse opinions. If they include Scripture references for each commandment, you'll find that not even the Scriptures often match up, nor in some cases, do the the references appear to have anything to do with the command that they are trying to describe. So, what's going on? The is designed so as not to be easily reduced to a list of thou shalts and thou shalt nots. It is not a check-list or evaluation card. It's a vehicle or path for walking in intimate relationship.

If we throw out the Book and keep the list, we are inclined to get our pencil and cross off the things that don't apply to us and check off the things that we feel that we have mastered. I want to assure you that I have been there. This method of commitment to (or a facilmile thereof) results, at best, in vanity and arrogance. At its worst it is condescending and self-satisfied: zero relationship with Adonai or anyone else.

Am I side-stepping your question? Well, sort of. It is true that there are specific commands that only carry a practical application within the geographic borders of Israel and under the theocratic governing system of elders and priests that really only existed in the days of Moses and Joshua (it quickly deteriorated soon after and only came close again under the leadership of Samuel). So, do we skip over those areas that don't practically apply to us? We're missing it if we do.

Paul described the Law as being spiritual, while I am carnal, sold under sin. That's Romans 7:14. Every physical command or prohibition is a way describing a spiritual matter. An extremely simplistic example is that we are commanded to utterly anihillate the Amalekites (who snuck up behind us and attacked us where we were weakest) is a physical mandate for us to "cover our back door" and to absolutely remove those besetting sins that we've allowed to accumulate on our back porch.

The commands that if a son is rebellious, we are to take him to the city gates and stone him to death. This seems a bit harsh in hind-sight. Yet, as a warning to parents, it was given to demonstrate how important it is to bring up your children in reverence and honor. By neglecting to raise our children under discipline, we are, in affect, signing their death warrant which is carried out by the entire community.

We don't "keep" the Passover. This requires the sacrifice of the spotless lamb at the Temple mount. Yet, we "observe" the Passover Seder because there is such richness and powerful worship in this Jewish tradition. The sacrifices have no substance in themselves; but are shadows and characatures of heavenly truth: the closest glimpses of eternity we can gain in our finite reality. They are important for us to try to understand and experience within the confines of the circumstances Adonai has established for us.

When you've studied for a while, you begin to see that it is designed to accomodate the varying circumstances we face. Adonai knew when He gave the that Israel would be scattered among the nations and that the Temple would be destroyed. It is important to understand that Daniel and Ezekiel (in the Old Testament days, before the sacrifice of the Messiah) lived under the exact same conditions that we do now, without the Temple and far from the holy City. We are not excused from any element of because of who and where we are. Our applications are simply filtered through a different channel, seeking truth through the Spirit of Adonai as a community who is struggling in a foreign land, instead of diligently practicing an often arduous physical duty. The more I study and experience my own walk of learning to worship, the more I find the trade off fairly equitable.

[Mark]

I guess I find myself somewhat bristled by the word "mandatory". A fellow walked up to me once out of nowhere and asked, "You are the guys that can't do anything on Saturdays, right?" (Yes, it really happens to me.) I responded, "No, we CHOOSE not to do certain things on Saturdays." He had to stop and think about this for a minute. There is a huge difference betwee n CONstraint and REstraint. as thought of from the gentile perspective as constraint: obligatory to obey or suffer wrath.

Let me introduce to you a parallel verse to Deuteronomy 27:26

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
(Hebrews 12:5-8)

The word "curse" is the word "ah-rar" which means to be placed under hardship. The word used in the Greek septuigent is epikataratos which is used in John 7:49, Galatians 3:10 and Galatians 3:13.

Our goal is to be closer in relationship to our heavenly Father. We believe the Scriptures teach that this is achieved through uncompromised, loving obedience, not self deprecation, nor self-denial but learning to understand what is important to Him and making those same things important to us.

It is true that many of the things in are somewhat circumstancial. Have you ever wondered what might go through your mind if someone walked up to you and said, "Hello, I am an Amalekite." I could imagine myself saying, " I'll be right back. Stay right there while I find something heavy." To be honest, I'm not sure what would be the appropriate thing to do; but fortunately, I doubt that circumstance will likely arrive.

Deuteronomy 4:2 says that we cannot add to nor diminish anything from the . That's the easy answer. Beyond that, you just have to ask Him.

[applecore]

Hi Mark (I wrote this before reading your second post),

thank you for your honest and insightful reply. A cursory glance through some of the lists reveals, as you say, varying interpretations on the accepted laws. This does beg the (trivial) question of how everyone comes up with exactly 613 laws all the time if there is differing opinions on whats in and whats not. I was also surprised to see that some of these laws predate Mt Sinai, such as Adam and Eve's charge to go forth and multiply. Obviously Genesis is part of but I've read a few times of how Abraham and Jacob are excused certain actions because the Law had yet to be written; `where no law is, there is no transgression`. As Paul says, sin existed before the Law in the sin nature, just no one could be accountable of what they didn't know. Thats not to say Adam and Eve's directive can't be Law, just I was always under the impression that what is called (in the legal sense) was the commands given to Moses.

Anyone have any view on the second part of my question? (which probably should have been in a separate thread). A superficial read through Galatians 3 seems to answer this; `Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone having been hanged on a tree")`, but the argument Paul is making goes along the lines of ...if you want to follow the Law then fine, just remember that you have to follow it all, else there is a curse on you (Deut 27:26). Messiah absorbed that curse so it wouldn't fall on us...Why would Paul tell them that following the Law (which obviously means the and not the oral law because of the Deuteronomy quote) requires you to do all of it else there's the curse? The goes on to say Messiah took that curse upon himself? If he's talking about justification why does he go on say that the Law was in place `until` Messiah came. Did the Law justify a person until Messiah came??? As Alice once said `Curiouser and Curiouser`.

I've taken the first few tentative steps down a very confusing path here, without even realizing that not only is there no unified opinion on the exact Laws but also finding myself ignorant of its very definition (Mt Sinai et al). Also, going through some of Paul's epistles lately seems to have become and exercise in semantics (not to be mis-read as semitics), rather than worship and edification. Confused? yes. Convinced? unsure. Disheartened? no!

Thanks again Mark for your guidance,

Craig

[Nashdude]

If I may chime in with a quick thought (bear in mind, this is a gentile Christian thought, not a Messianic Jewish one)...

If he's talking about justification why does he go on say that the Law was in place `until` Messiah came. Did the Law justify a person until Messiah came???

As scripture tells us, the Law justifies no one. The Law is entirely dependent on a coming Messiah, the sacrifices mere deposits on the price that He paid in full. Had Messiah not come, the Law would have been pointless, because what is imperfect cannot be made perfect by imperfect means---and we are imperfect from birth, thus doomed before we even get a start! Let me give you an analogy.

You take a document and run it through your photocopier. It comes out the other end pristine, except for a single black speck. Run that copy through, and you get another black speck. With each recopy, the next copy picks up the previous imperfections and adds to them. No amount of cleaning up will get rid of them. You can use White-Out. You can use masking tape. You can do whatever maintenance you feel is necessary on the copier. But no matter what you do, the next copy will be imperfect.

That's why you always keep a MASTER copy, so that you can run the ORIGINAL through the machine and get a pristine copy again

All the Law really sought to do was give us a guide to God's Mind, let us know what He wants and doesn't want. It really had no provision for fixing what was screwed up in us---just for bandaging the open wounds until such time as Messiah could Heal them. This was by design, because God wanted us to realize that we ARE screwed up, and nothing that we can do within ourselves will ever change that! The only way to fix the screw up is for Him who is perfect to do it FOR us---to go back to the original and redo the whole thing.

That's where Jesus comes in. When God looks at the saint, He doesn't see the imperfect man. He sees, rather, the perfect Messiah that died in his place. This is something the Law could never do, and indeed was never DESIGNED to do.

My two cents...

[applecore]

Hi Nashdude,
thanks for your helpful comments. I was being slightly ironic when I asked if the Law justified a person. In the same passage Paul specifically states Gal 3:11 `But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."` I assumed that passages such as these would have been read hundreds of times on this forum and that everyone knew verse 11. It was a wry third person remark of someone attempting to untangle how the `curse` applys today after Messiah had taken it on, and Paul saying that unless you obey the whole Law you fall under that same `curse`; it was a feeble attempt at wit! Don't get me wrong, with a sincere and open heart I'm looking into possibility that `western` theology is overlooking the beauty and significance of in that it is still to be revered and observed.

Take for example Deutromony 25:19 and the wiping out of the descendants of Amalek (back to that again!!!). We (gentiles) look at that and think `history lesson`. Now consider Mark's comments above. He sees that and likens it to anything unholy that we allow to take up residence on our back door, and by back door it means anything that we have allowed to insidiously creep in from our most vulnerable position. People don't come to conclusions like that by reading through a shopping list of commands for an anicient group of people, but by careful meditation and by seeking ernestly for its `eternal` application. What other riches of are we missing?

I think I understand what you mean about the law being `imperfect`. Paul uses the analogy of Hagar(flesh) and Sarah(Spirit), when talking of and Grace. What I think he's getting at is that while showed, in stone, the will of G-d, it provided no means to practice those commands. It was up to man to obey those commands on his own strength, by the flesh. After Messiah the Spirit has given us the means to not only obey His will from within, but also to understand it. I think this is what Paul means when he writes in 2Corinthians 3:3; `having been made plain that you are the epistle of Christ, ministered by us, not having been written with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not on tablets of stone, but in fleshly tablets of the heart`.

You wrote; `That's where Jesus comes in. When God looks at the saint, He doesn't see the imperfect man. He sees, rather, the perfect Messiah that died in his place. This is something the Law could never do, and indeed was never DESIGNED to do.` Amen to that Nashdude, I'm in agreement one hundred percent. But it is this very fact that poses (for me) the dilemma of why Paul states that unless you obey the whole of you fall under the curse, and Messiah took the curse upon Himself. This is where I respectfully disagree with Mark in the contextual meaning of `curse` in the Galations passage. Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:23 in that anyone who hangs on a tree is cursed. In full the passage reads; (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

22.And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and if he is put to death and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain all night on the tree. But you shall surely bury him that day (for he that is hanged is accursed of God), so that your land may not be defiled, which Jehovah your God gives you for an inheritance.

Messiah became accursed before G-d on the cross, and Paul uses this curse (Deut 21:23) as a simile to the curse of the law which he had just quoted from Deuteronomy 27:26. Paul writes that by Messiah's act we have been redeemed from that curse (Deut 27:26). I don't believe Paul is saying that Messiah took on the hardships of the Law and that unless you obey the whole Law you take on the hardships. It doesn't make sense (to me at least). Maybe I'm missing something and need the sagely advice of some grizzled, grey haired Messianic rabbi to point out the flaws in my reasoning.

Thanks again for your reply Nashdude,

Craig

[Nashdude]

Jul 25, 2008 7:20:47 GMT -8 applecore said:

Hi Nashdude,
thanks for your helpful comments. I was being slightly ironic when I asked if the Law justified a person.

I figured as much, and caught the jest, but as this forum seems to be frequented by guests (such as myself for WEEKS before joining hehe), I felt it a point that needed clarification.

What other riches of are we missing?

The very reason that I, as a Gentile Christian, would join a Messianic board

I've found this place to be a wealth of insight, and though I do disagree at times with what I read, I never really came here to be converted in the first place. That happened the moment that I asked my Savior to also be my Lord! I came here to be enriched, to better understand the Lord that I served, to see Him from an angle that I, in my Western understanding, might never consider.

I think I understand what you mean about the law being `imperfect`. Paul uses the analogy of Hagar(flesh) and Sarah(Spirit), when talking of and Grace. What I think he's getting at is that while showed, in stone, the will of G-d, it provided no means to practice those commands. It was up to man to obey those commands on his own strength, by the flesh.

Yeah, I was going to clarify the point, but it seems you got it. The Law itself is not imperfect, but rather our ability (or inability) to keep it is.

The Law is, and always has been, a rough outline of God's Will. It touches all the high points, and gives you enough ground to fill in the blanks. But just as with any outline, it DOES have blanks to fill in. This is not a sign of imperfect, just a reality check that God's COMPLETE Will could never be contained in any database, no matter how many supercomputers you used

In full the passage reads; (Deuteronomy 21:22-23)

22.And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and if he is put to death and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain all night on the tree. But you shall surely bury him that day (for he that is hanged is accursed of God), so that your land may not be defiled, which Jehovah your God gives you for an inheritance.

Messiah became accursed before G-d on the cross, and Paul uses this curse (Deut 21:23) as a simile to the curse of the law which he had just quoted from Deuteronomy 27:26.

Agreed. I'd just like to point out that it is not the hanging that brings on the curse. Rather, it is the curse that brings on the hanging. Messiah took on our curse before He ever made it to Golgotha. The curse wasn't in the Cross. That was the PENALTY for the curse. Instead, the curse is the separation from God that we all experience because of our sins.

Here's a chiller of an analogy. Jesus was with the Father for all eternity past. He will be with the Father for all eternity future. But at that one point, on Golgotha, He cried out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Forsaken. God the Son, crying out to God the Father, that He was forsaken, berift, alone. Consider that image. For the first and ONLY time---in all of eternity past and all of eternity future---Jesus was separated from the Father.

He who knew no sin BECAME sin so that we might become His righteousness in Him. This is the curse, not the Cross. Physical death is but a physical penalty. The curse of sin is the death of the spirit---one that only God Himself could defeat.

No miracle of man, even imbued with the power of God, can match that. Jesus performed many miracles in His very short earthly ministry---and His disciples since then have performed even more under God's direction---but the greatest miracle of all was providing a way for sinful man to stand acceptable before a sinless God.

Kinda far afield, I know, but it's something that your reply dragged from me

[vegangirl]

I just printed out 23pages of the List 613 mitzvot.. So we just cross off the ones we have mastered? and don't worry about the ones that don't apply anymore?

So what about a women having many children? Does that one still apply? When I read this post I'm feeling worried I am not doing everything God said to do...

Are 2 kids enough? Its enough for me thats for sure.

I even found all this stuff also on the site.. There are a lot of rules.. I don't even know if I can remember them all..
I am a vegan so does this mean I would still have to eat meat on passover? or other Holidays'

All these are worth reading.
Jewish Law
Ten Commandments
Love & Brotherhood
Speech & Lashon Ha-Ra
Dietary Laws
Kosher Sex
Charity
Treatment of Animals
Sacrifices & Offerings?

[azgdt5120]

vegangirl may I ask you where did you find the 613 mitzvots??

[tonga]

Short Answer: All of the mitzvot are still mandatory....some we just cannot observe now-but
they are still in effect. We don't discard them just because we cannot observe them at this time.