Trinity vs Oneness Doctrine?

[Bob]

Great question Vegangirl!
The Trinity has been under debate for a VERY long time. Probably since Adam was no longer around to explain his exact relationship with Adonai.
Christians start with their belief of the Triune God in Genesis 1:26 (And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. {KJV})
God refers to himself in the plural sense. How can He be only 1 if He refers to Himself as plural? Is He Schizophrenic?
Yeshua references to himself as being 1 with the Father. John 10:30
Yeshua references the Holy Spirit who will be sent to after his assention. John 14:17, John 15:26, and John 16:13.
Finally Peter in his letter the Galatians introduces himself using the Triune God head.
1 Peter 1:1-2 ( 1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. {KJV})

Hope this helps a little. There is much more... I just hit the highlights

[Bob]

I do however want to make one more point. The trinity does not mean we have 3 gods. We have 1 God in 3 parts (so to speak)
Adonai has given us many examples to show how 3 may be 1
My favorite is the Apple (because my Mom used to read me a book using apples to explain 3 in 1 to me when I was little) 3 in 1 is the title of the book
The just of it is
An apple has 3 parts but it is still only 1 apple.
it has a core (which contains the seeds)
it has the flesh (the part we eat)
and it has the peel (which protects the flesh and the core. But it is still only 1

An egg is also a very commonly used picture of 3 in 1

[Prodigal Girl]

Where the "trinity" doctrine goes wrong is when some variety of it makes it look like Yeshua is different from the G-d of the Universe. The new Testament says that Yeshua has not only been around since Creation and before; (in other words, forever) but that He took an active role in the Creation (in other words, He IS the Creator). He also said that if you search the scriptures (meaning, at the time He was speaking, the Old Testament) you would find Him, see Him in the scriptures.
In a nutshell, I believe that Yeshua has existed forever. There are many, many examples of SOMEONE appearing to various persons in the Old Testament. Remember, that "angel" means "messenger". Many people assume that the various appearances are "angels" according to some mythological/Greek/pagan understanding. But I believe that when it said that G-d walked in the garden, wrestled with Jacob, made food for Elijah, etc. etc. it was Yeshua. The catholic church as well as other churches, do not teach that Yeshua was there when the Law was given to Moses. I believe that not only was He there, but that it was He that gave the law to Moses; it was He who Moses and his companions saw on the mountain.
Sometimes the trinity debate is just a matter of semantics, and other times there is actually erroneous doctrine involved. Where the Old Testament teachings are portrayed as being given by a different G-d from the New Testament, that I believe is in error.

[Mark]

We have to be very careful to understand that there is a difference between "Pentacostal Oneness Doctrine" and the Oneness Doctrine of Mormonism. Moromonism declares that while Yeshua is absolutely divine, He is a distinct person from the Father. In "Pentacostal Oneness", Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are simply manifestations of the One God- that there are not three distinct perosnages; but Adonai is capable of manifesting Himself to us in whatever form He desires: a burning bush, a descending dove, a pillar of cloud, an incarnate man.

I see a great value in the Oneness Pentacostal perspective; but I've come to the place of not wanting to be pigeon-holed on how God is defined. If He can fit within the confines of my intellectual definition... well, then He's not much of a God.

His character and the make-up of His existance is atterly beyond the farthest reaches fo my imagination. I take those statements about who He is at face value and try not to read too much into the rest of it.

Before launching hard into the anything against Trinity must be heresy, I'd recommend looking at this website:

ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/one-Top.htm

Then, if you wanted to do a google search on "oneness doctrine" you'll find a whole host of arguments against it from the Trinitarian side. Both arguments have some valid positions; but remember, we're trying to understand God here. Each of our perspectives will be unquestionably limited and short-sighted.

Always in love,

Mark

[Tyler]

May 6, 2008 10:08:45 GMT -8 Prodigal Girl said:

Where the "trinity" doctrine goes wrong is when some variety of it makes it look like Yeshua is different from the G-d of the Universe. The new Testament says that Yeshua has not only been around since Creation and before; (in other words, forever) but that He took an active role in the Creation (in other words, He IS the Creator). He also said that if you search the scriptures (meaning, at the time He was speaking, the Old Testament) you would find Him, see Him in the scriptures.
In a nutshell, I believe that Yeshua has existed forever. There are many, many examples of SOMEONE appearing to various persons in the Old Testament. Remember, that "angel" means "messenger". Many people assume that the various appearances are "angels" according to some mythological/Greek/pagan understanding. But I believe that when it said that G-d walked in the garden, wrestled with Jacob, made food for Elijah, etc. etc. it was Yeshua. The catholic church as well as other churches, do not teach that Yeshua was there when the Law was given to Moses. I believe that not only was He there, but that it was He that gave the law to Moses; it was He who Moses and his companions saw on the mountain.
Sometimes the trinity debate is just a matter of semantics, and other times there is actually erroneous doctrine involved. Where the Old Testament teachings are portrayed as being given by a different G-d from the New Testament, that I believe is in error.

That was well said.

On the other end of the spectrum I have met Messianic Jews who believe the oneness doctrine and explain that Yeshua is a created Being who assisted in creation. This is also a HUGE error.

Anyway, Mark nailed it when he said:

Each of our perspectives will be unquestionably limited and short-sighted.

It is good to think about such things as the nature of God's Unity, however we should obviously never go beyond Scripture.

My opinion counts for nothing if it demands more than simple faith in such Scriptures as Matthew 3:16.

[Tyler]

Sorry. Here's the reference:

As soon as Yeshua had been immersed, he came up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, he saw the Spirit of God coming down upon him like a dove, and a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; I am well pleased with him." Matthew 3:16-17

[Bob]

It is good to think about such things as the nature of God's Unity, however we should obviously never go beyond Scripture.

I also like John 17:20-24
Joh 17:20-24 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

[Zandurian]

Some good information and discussion on this subject is in progress at this site
fatherslove.freeforums.org/exposs-f9.html

blessings,
- Byron

[Mark]

Hi Vegangirl,

You will find that the majority of folk in the Messianic faith hold to the doctrine of Trinity (but defined in several different ways). This is because the majority have only been taught the Trinity option when declaring the deity of Messiah Yeshua.

Even in the Trinity doctrine, many believe that Messiah abandoned His deity, thus losing His immortality in order to die for our sins. Once again, this is an attempt to fit our infinite God into the limited definition of our finite brains. How can the immortal and eternal die?

In John 11:26 Messiah says, "Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die."

In Hebrews 9:27 we are told that "it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment..."

Then in Revelation 2:11, Messiah also says, "He that overcomes will not be hurt from the second death."

Is the Scripture in conflict? No, and if you read these passages in context, you will find that they mean very different and very specific things. The point is that when strive to understand the infinite using terms of a finite vocabulary we are going to be faced with some limitations. Can God die? Well, yes... depending upon how you define the word "death."

Zechariah 13:6 declares that it was Adonai Himself whose hands were wounded for our sakes.

And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
(Zechariah 13:6)

[Mark]

Ya know, I'd like to say that the distinction between Pentacostal Oneness and Trinity (and please be aware that there is a difference between Pentacostal Oneness and Mormon Oneness) is not a big enough issue to hamper fellowship within a congregation; but, I don't have any control over that even within my own group, let alone anyone else's. Trinity is a hot-button issue merely because to most minds, denial of the Trinity is denial of Messiah Yeshua's deity (or God-hood). If they understand that your perspective of "One-ness" does not compromise Messiah's Divine nature; then there is probably not going to be any issue.

Messianic congregations do not follow any set order of definitive criteria. Messianic Judaism is not a religious franchise. While there are National and International umbrella organizations that support cooperation between congregations, there is no standard that definitively commands what each congregation will believe. Most Messianic congregations are completely independent- not chartered to a parent group. So, you see, there are no controls to establish what any one congregation believes or teaches. Simply by the name "Messianic Jewish", we may presume that the Jewish perspective of both Old and New Testament Scriptures is taught and that it is confessed that Yeshua ben Yosef ben David is and was the Messiah who died on the cross for our sins and rose again. Other than that, there is no tell ing what they believe or teach, regarding observance, regarding the inclusion of the gentiles, regarding the national state of Israel, regarding the age to come. Some people are frustrated by this and think we should somehow try to unify and codify our belief system. I think such unification is hollow- seeing that it has done no good for the denominational system that we see in Christianity but only built barriers, relusiveness and infighting among those seeking personal power.

I've already written on my own view of Pentacostal Oneness versus Trinity, simply it is this: you'r enot going to put me in the position of defining who God is. Is Messiah Yeshua divine? Absolutely. If not, He was guilty of idolatry and of leading men into idolatry (the most egregious of sin found in ). Beyond that, I'm not smart enough to define God.

United Pentacostal is not a "cult" because by definition, a cult is centered upon a leader who manipulates or coerces his or her followers into submission. I can applaud the sincerity and dedication to a strict order; but there are a couple of things that I believe or entrapping.

The first problem is that the definitive nature of sin and righteousness is based upon outward appearance and defined by the congregational leadership: not the Bible. It is the congregational leadership who gets to define what is sin and what is not. Television, drinking alcohol and mini-skirts (or blue-jeans) are not biblically defined as sin; but the Unite Pentacostal leadership is willing to both add to and take away from or simply re-define in order to fit the identity that he wishes to establish for his congregation. This can easy develop into a cult-like order; but it is not necesarily that way.

The second problem is the sense of arrogance or self-righteousness that develops from the above statements. "We are good because we don't do these things- you are bad because you do." No congrgetation is immune to this sort of thinking, and Messianic folk are as notorious as any other. Yet, from my experiences, it seems to be ingrown into the United Pentacostal faith: God loves us because we're better tah everybody else, because of the sacrifices that we make... not just because of the sacrifice that He made.

At Beit Ahavat Yeshua, we teach that is the definition of sin and righteousness and that it is understood within the context of a Jewish interpretation, hedged in by the writings of the Brit Hadesha (or, New Testament). We are all sinners saved by the grace of God through His personal sacrifice on the cross for our sins. We are not righteousness. We are not obedient to the Scriptures; but we are individually growing in obedience as we are being drawn closer to Adonai through the Ruakh haKodesh (the Holy Spirit). This means that we are all on the same course of following after righteousness; but not in the same place and oten not following the same route. We are led in the direction that we are going by the Holy Spirit. This means that you may think shell-fish is okay but you are adament that women should mikvah every month. I may enjoy baseball on Sabbath but refuse to miss the appointed prayers. I'm not going to belittle you in the areas that we don't see eye to eye nor think I am superior because I know that there are areas that I don't see quit ecorrectly. We trust that Adonai, through His Spirit, as we are learning and growing, will draw us closer to each other because He is drawing us closer to Himself.

A bit long-winded, and I apologize for that. I can't help you make the decisions that you alone have to make; but I can tell you that if you pursue the kingdom of Adonai and His righteousness in your daily walk and with your daily decisions, all these other issues will fall into place.

[Mark]

More on Jews for Jesus and how I personally feel about them here

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&thread=105

[jonah135588]

May 7, 2008 9:57:40 GMT -8 Tyler said:

Sorry. Here's the reference:

As soon as Yeshua had been immersed, he came up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, he saw the Spirit of God coming down upon him like a dove, and a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; I am well pleased with him." Matthew 3:16-17

Thats exactly what I was going to say, thank you.

[adam7gur]

Here’s what i believe!
It is written” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” My question is , does God have a beginning?No , He does not , He made time so He has no beginning.But it says that the Word was God!
Let me ask something else.. Does God have a shape, an image? If I say that He does then I would be limitting Him and that’s not wise because God has no limits of any kind.But God wanted to create a human being that would be in His image , so if He has no image then what would that human being look like?
God has to give Himself a shape , an image and that’s how he gave birth to the Word.
It is written”All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”Who is John talking about here?He’s talkinhg about The Word!The Word made all things.
Does God give birth? It is written that both man and woman are made in His image so yes , God gives birth! And whatever God gives birth to, cannot be something less than God just like humans give birth to humans and dogs give birth to dogs.How was The Word born? It is written that for all those things that we cannot understand , nature is our example.
”21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
”22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
In a way that’s how The Word was also born , or taken out of God , ’cause someone does not have to come out of a woman’s legs to be born.My son was taken out of my wife’s belly , but i assure you he is born!
So Man and Woman were ONE FLESH , and that’s exactly what God and The Word are.They are ONE ! Man and Woman are one flesh and God and The Word are ONE GOD!
The Word is God’s image and ”All things were made by him” , He , The Word made us humans in His image , the image of His unseen Father , God!
”14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,” The Word became the person that we call Jesus Christ.
”5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And BEING FOUND in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

That’s how i see it!
Thank you for your time!

[lawrenceofisrael]

The thing is we got to understand Yeshua.
What titles do the Prophets and Apostles give him? What does he say about himself?
In Revealation of Yochanan ( may the Lord remember him ) he says: "I am the First and the Last".
In other words eternal. Now the only being that is eternal is the almighty God.
Other proof is that the Apostle Shaul (may the Lord remember him ) said that all who call unto the name of Yeshua are saved. Was mankind at anytime permitted to call unto the name of any human being? Do we pray to Moshe ( may the Lord remember him )?Do we worship Mirjam ( may the Lord remember her? Will it help us to call unto her name?? No, Never, it´ll damage our soul if we´d dare worshipping this great lady, who´d never required anyone to worship her. But the Apostle (may the Lord remember him ) instructs us to perform acts of service which are only due to God.

Another example.
Look at the human body. I hope we all have two eyes, two hands and two feet.
Now these are all different parts of the body, yet the body is one. So we see the father is not the son and the son not the spirit, yet they are one.
Shalom

[veggirl]

I see Adoni as being one, Yeshua did forgive sin before calvary. To me that makes him God.

I have been explained oneness, twoness , and Trinity, and I have heard different kinds of trinity's also..

I have heard it all, even Yeshua being Michael the angle.. WOw..

peace..