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Post by Mark on Apr 28, 2005 4:34:59 GMT -8
Most of us live a relatively sheltered existance when it comes to different belief systems. We know that there are differing points of view and that there is more information out there; but we gather what knowledge we have, generally, from those around us- filtered through a belief system that we are comfortable with.
For the biblically minded Jew salvation is by the grace of Adonai, through faith in the coming Messiah. They have simply not received the message that Yeshua came as that Messiah. They are still waiting and still trusting.
What special grace do you suppose that Elohym has for such people who are faithful but misinformed?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 28, 2005 11:51:42 GMT -8
I believe that the special grace Adonai has for his people are outlined in the TeNaKh in regards to the passages that promise to bring His chosen people back into the land to prepare them to receive Messiah as G'd delivers and saves them from their enemies. What other people has He done this for? But, for those whom reject the prophet that was and is like Moshe and would come after Moshe and whom Moshe wrote about...it will be required of such a one...
"YHVH your G'd will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, like me; to him you shall listen; according to all that you desired of the YHVH your G'd in Chorev in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YHVH my G'd, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I not die.
YHVH said to me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
- Devarim (Deu.) 18:15-19
Adonai has done very many special miracles and works for the people of Yisrael and has at many times tried to gather his people unto Himself. Out of grace and kindness He has done this especially for the people of Yisrael. But, because He has done this and they hold the very oracles of HaShem, He will require it from them in the end if they reject His Son, Mashiach...Yeshua. If they are still seeking for Messiah...they have not accepted the Messianic prophecies as found in the TeNaKh that they study so diligently. If they continue to reject them and the words of Messiah, it will be required of them.
Shalom b'Yeshua,
Reuel
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Apr 28, 2005 16:24:16 GMT -8
I agree, the only way one can not enter into the Kingdom of G-d is by rejecting Yohshuah HaMoshiach. Yet, there exist Jews who will never hear the good news.
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Post by Rick on Apr 28, 2005 17:29:39 GMT -8
"For by Grace you are saved through faith", If our jewish brethren have 'saving faith' in the messiah, but they simply have not come to the truth that he has already come, is this sufficient?
Rom 9:27 And Yeshayahu cries out on behalf of Yisra’ĕl, “Though the number of the children of Yisra’ĕl be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved.
Rom 11:26 and so all Yisra'el will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Tziyon the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Ya`akov.
So are the scriptures saying only a few,(remnant), or ALL of Israel will be saved?
Isa 45:17 [But] Yisra'el shall be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation: you shall not be disappointed nor confounded world without end.
Will all 'come to salvation', or; "Shall be saved"-"Will be saved"
as an act of divine mercy for his chosen, having been atoned for but unaware of the atonement?
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "AND AVRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CONSIDERED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
;D
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 29, 2005 9:27:40 GMT -8
Messiah has been known by all the Patriarchs and Prophets of old. The people of G'd are responsible for all additions to the unified covenant of G'd. Just as Avraham trusted G'd as he came into covenant with G'd, so also the people of G'd must trust Him with His entire covenant. One cannot choose what part of the covenant to reside in. In other words, if one truly believes G'd, they will live by every word that proceeds from His mouth as Yeshua The Messiah has stated... "But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of G'd." - Mat.4:4 The Good News can be found in the TeNaKh which a good Jew should read every day. The Gospel is there. The Apostles preached the Gospel from the prophecies found in the TeNaKh. For any that seek G'd with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength (a requirement) will find Yeshua and believe upon Him. I believe the scriptures say, no. I derive this from the following passage.... "YHVH your G'd will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, like me; to him you shall listen; according to all that you desired of the YHVH your G'd in Chorev in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YHVH my G'd, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I not die.
YHVH said to me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."- Devarim (Deu.) 18:15-19 Clearly not -all- the Jewish people will accept Yeshua The Messiah. In fact, many have already rejected him and are in their graves. There are no second chances.... "And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment"...- Ivrim (Heb.) 9:27 There are two ways I can see that one may look upon these passages you referenced. As for Romans 9:27... "Yeshaiyahu cries concerning Yisra'el, "If the number of the children of Yisra'el are as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant who will be saved..."We could conclude from the above passage that it is not the entire number represented by the sand of the sea in regards to Yisrael being saved...but, it is the remnant whom will be saved. There has always been a righteous remnant whom has stayed faithful to Elohim... "I ask then, did G'd reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Yisra'eli, a descendant of Avraham, of the tribe of Binyamin.
G'd didn't reject his people, which he foreknew. Or don't you know what the Scripture says about Eliyahu? How he pleads with God against Yisra'el:
"L-rd, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
But how does G'd answer him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Ba`al."
In the same manner, then, there has also come to be at the present season a remnant according to G-d’s gracious choice. "- Romans 11:1-5 The remnant does not include every last person in Yisrael. The remnant are those whom are serving G'd in spirit and truth. As for Romans 11:26... "and so all Yisra'el will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Tziyon the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Ya`akov."The Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown commentary makes a good point... The passage from the Hebrew TeNaKh that rav Sha'ul (Paul) derives this passage says the following... "A Redeemer will come to Tziyon, and to those who turn from disobedience in Ya`akov, says YHVH.
As for me, this is my covenant with them, says YHVH: my Spirit who is on you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of the mouth of your seed's seed, says YHVH, from henceforth and forever." - Yesha'yahu (Isa.) 59:20-21 We can see that from the above passage in which Sha'ul quotes in Romans 11:26 and in the context of the statement, "all Yisrael will be saved", it is those whom "turn from disobedience" that this is spoken of. And, those whom turn from disobedience and observe the  commandment found in Devarim (Deu.) 18:15-19 will be saved as Yesha'yahu (Isa.) 59:21 indicates... "As for me, this is my covenant with them, says YHVH: my Spirit who is on you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of the mouth of your seed's seed, says YHVH, from henceforth and forever"The seed of righteous Yisrael will be saved from the destruction of their enemies and -The Enemy-, and in this manner "all Yisrael will be saved". The second way the passage you referenced could be viewed is a type of physcial salvation. The term salvation in Hebrew thought is much more broad than how Christianity thinks of it. Christianity simply thinks in terms of spiritual salvation. But, one of the ways the salvation of Yisrael has always been thought of is in the context of being delivered from their enemies. So, if one wishes to believe that both believing and unbelieving Jew will be "saved", it could be concluded that G'd will deliver the Jewish people from their enemies in the end of days as it is written... "Behold, a day of YHVH comes, when your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all nations against Yerushalayim to battle; and the city will be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go out into captivity, and the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
Then YHVH will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 14:1-3 And, in another place it is said... "Men will dwell therein, and there will be no more curse; but Yerushalayim will dwell safely."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 14:11 In other words, all Yisrael has been saved as they are dwelling in safety (a state of having been saved). And, in another place it is said... "In that day I will make the chieftains of Yehudah like a pan of fire among wood, and like a flaming torch among sheaves; and they will devour all the surrounding peoples, on the right hand and on the left; and Yerushalayim will yet again dwell in their own place, even in Yerushalayim.
YHVH also will save the tents of Yehudah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Yerushalayim not be magnified above Yehudah.
In that day YHVH will defend the inhabitants of Yerushalayim. He who is feeble among them at that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like G'd, like the angel of YHVH before them.
It will happen in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Yerushalayim."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 12:6-19 In this way, it could be said that at this time all Yisrael will be saved. So, we can see that at the very least this phrase "all Yisrael will be saved" can be looked upon as a physical salvation. At least, the first stage can be looked upon in this light as we can see in the following verse that G'd has plans for these people whom He physically saves... "I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 12:9 It is after the physical salvation that their eyes will be opened. But, in another place it is also said... "It shall happen that in all the land," says YHVH, "two parts in it will be cut off and die; but the third will be left in it.
I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them like gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say, 'It is my people;' and they will say, 'YHVH is my G'd.'"- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 13:8-9 In this manner, all Yisrael shall also be saved. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Apr 29, 2005 12:27:13 GMT -8
What I meant was that they will never be told it is Yohshauh HaMoshiach. Even today many people believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be the true Melek Moshiach, he was a great man, and he did many miracles, and he increased peace and love ing the jewish world, but even the false prophets were good men, not telling people to worship evil gods, but always told them to worship, but of course, in a way that would lead them off the right path. So the Rebbe was a good man, but many jews have never been presented with the truth of Yohshuah HaMoshiach and therefore have no ability to make a decision on the matter. They will never know.
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Post by Rick on Apr 29, 2005 13:26:52 GMT -8
Excellent Reuel! eloquent and concise!
The reason I cited those particular verses and posed the question, is because those have been used in "replacement theology" discussions. I've felt like my rebuttals were not quite adequate.
You have given me a different perspective, Thank you very much for your insight.
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Zoey
New Member
Posts: 17
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Post by Zoey on Aug 10, 2009 18:02:31 GMT -8
Messiah has been known by all the Patriarchs and Prophets of old. The people of G'd are responsible for all additions to the unified covenant of G'd. Just as Avraham trusted G'd as he came into covenant with G'd, so also the people of G'd must trust Him with His entire covenant. One cannot choose what part of the covenant to reside in. In other words, if one truly believes G'd, they will live by every word that proceeds from His mouth as Yeshua The Messiah has stated... "But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of G'd." - Mat.4:4 The Good News can be found in the TeNaKh which a good Jew should read every day. The Gospel is there. The Apostles preached the Gospel from the prophecies found in the TeNaKh. For any that seek G'd with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength (a requirement) will find Yeshua and believe upon Him. I believe the scriptures say, no. I derive this from the following passage.... "YHVH your G'd will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, like me; to him you shall listen; according to all that you desired of the YHVH your G'd in Chorev in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YHVH my G'd, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I not die.
YHVH said to me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."- Devarim (Deu.) 18:15-19 Clearly not -all- the Jewish people will accept Yeshua The Messiah. In fact, many have already rejected him and are in their graves. There are no second chances.... "And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment"...- Ivrim (Heb.) 9:27 There are two ways I can see that one may look upon these passages you referenced. As for Romans 9:27... "Yeshaiyahu cries concerning Yisra'el, "If the number of the children of Yisra'el are as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant who will be saved..."We could conclude from the above passage that it is not the entire number represented by the sand of the sea in regards to Yisrael being saved...but, it is the remnant whom will be saved. There has always been a righteous remnant whom has stayed faithful to Elohim... "I ask then, did G'd reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Yisra'eli, a descendant of Avraham, of the tribe of Binyamin.
G'd didn't reject his people, which he foreknew. Or don't you know what the Scripture says about Eliyahu? How he pleads with God against Yisra'el:
"L-rd, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
But how does G'd answer him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Ba`al."
In the same manner, then, there has also come to be at the present season a remnant according to G-d’s gracious choice. "- Romans 11:1-5 The remnant does not include every last person in Yisrael. The remnant are those whom are serving G'd in spirit and truth. As for Romans 11:26... "and so all Yisra'el will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Tziyon the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Ya`akov."The Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown commentary makes a good point... The passage from the Hebrew TeNaKh that rav Sha'ul (Paul) derives this passage says the following... "A Redeemer will come to Tziyon, and to those who turn from disobedience in Ya`akov, says YHVH.
As for me, this is my covenant with them, says YHVH: my Spirit who is on you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of the mouth of your seed's seed, says YHVH, from henceforth and forever." - Yesha'yahu (Isa.) 59:20-21 We can see that from the above passage in which Sha'ul quotes in Romans 11:26 and in the context of the statement, "all Yisrael will be saved", it is those whom "turn from disobedience" that this is spoken of. And, those whom turn from disobedience and observe the commandment found in Devarim (Deu.) 18:15-19 will be saved as Yesha'yahu (Isa.) 59:21 indicates... "As for me, this is my covenant with them, says YHVH: my Spirit who is on you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of the mouth of your seed's seed, says YHVH, from henceforth and forever"The seed of righteous Yisrael will be saved from the destruction of their enemies and -The Enemy-, and in this manner "all Yisrael will be saved". The second way the passage you referenced could be viewed is a type of physcial salvation. The term salvation in Hebrew thought is much more broad than how Christianity thinks of it. Christianity simply thinks in terms of spiritual salvation. But, one of the ways the salvation of Yisrael has always been thought of is in the context of being delivered from their enemies. So, if one wishes to believe that both believing and unbelieving Jew will be "saved", it could be concluded that G'd will deliver the Jewish people from their enemies in the end of days as it is written... "Behold, a day of YHVH comes, when your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all nations against Yerushalayim to battle; and the city will be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go out into captivity, and the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
Then YHVH will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 14:1-3 And, in another place it is said... "Men will dwell therein, and there will be no more curse; but Yerushalayim will dwell safely."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 14:11 In other words, all Yisrael has been saved as they are dwelling in safety (a state of having been saved). And, in another place it is said... "In that day I will make the chieftains of Yehudah like a pan of fire among wood, and like a flaming torch among sheaves; and they will devour all the surrounding peoples, on the right hand and on the left; and Yerushalayim will yet again dwell in their own place, even in Yerushalayim.
YHVH also will save the tents of Yehudah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Yerushalayim not be magnified above Yehudah.
In that day YHVH will defend the inhabitants of Yerushalayim. He who is feeble among them at that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like G'd, like the angel of YHVH before them.
It will happen in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Yerushalayim."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 12:6-19 In this way, it could be said that at this time all Yisrael will be saved. So, we can see that at the very least this phrase "all Yisrael will be saved" can be looked upon as a physical salvation. At least, the first stage can be looked upon in this light as we can see in the following verse that G'd has plans for these people whom He physically saves... "I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn."- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 12:9 It is after the physical salvation that their eyes will be opened. But, in another place it is also said... "It shall happen that in all the land," says YHVH, "two parts in it will be cut off and die; but the third will be left in it.
I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them like gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say, 'It is my people;' and they will say, 'YHVH is my G'd.'"- Z'kharyah (Zec.) 13:8-9 In this manner, all Yisrael shall also be saved. Shalom chaverim, Reuel what a blessing to find this post, I was just praying about this as I have been very confused regarding Israel...there are some christians who totally disregard Gods relationship with Israel...it was leaving me so depressed but now I have a better understanding...  |
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Post by yeshuafreak on Aug 26, 2009 7:45:16 GMT -8
Romans 1/2 states that every man will be judged by the light he has recieved, his conscience accusing or accusing his actions and such. he also states that the jews were chosen as the oracles of God. indeed, the plce of the jews was to bring salvation unto the gentile. but they wouldnt so now gentiles are provoking jews to salvation! he has not forsaken his people, but are using the gentiles to reconcile his people. now, if each man is to be judged by the light he has recieved than a jew who has recieved , in which all the secrets of the world are hidden, than they will be judged by . the only reason why they dont understand fully is because of their unbelief., which veils their eyes to the glory of the of death. however, when they are under Grace, not , then they will be under a of life and the veil removed, showing the greater glory that does not fade like mosheh's face did. (now, the of life and the of death are the same . but the ministration of Death is to those under the law. those under the law are punished by the law- and the law punishes lawbreakers (which we all are ) by death. however, when we believe in Yeshua we die to the law and come alive to God, still following , but now under Grace. This grace allows Yeshua to take the penalty and the curse of on the lawbreaker, iunstead of us. In this way we can live because of Ysehua, so the becomes a ministration of Life. and if the ministartion of death had glory so that mosheh had to veil himself, how much greater would the glory of the ministration of life be? and if the glory of the ministration of death was fading, than the ministration of Life surely does not fade. But the jews now read the ministration of Death (tanakh) with a veil over their face like mosheh, so that they cannot see the glory. but when they have Yeshua then the ministration becomes one of life (the new testament) and the veil is removed.) so, since the jews are only veiled from the true natre of because of their unbelief, than they will be judged by denying the truth that they know. however, God is the RighteousJudge and i am merely a man. i have partiality and am bound to a lower logic. therefore, let us not condemn the unbelieving jews, for through that we are condening ourselves, for we are all sinners. instead, let us lift the unbelieving jews up, shewing them our faith by our works. the veil is not bad per se. it has its place. people will try to take the veil off with every possible means, even with fleshly things. but soon they will get fed up with having eyes that dont see, ears that dont hear, and a nose that doesnt smell. the will realize that the only way to remove the veil is Adonai (Adonai here means the spirit) and trust in Yeshua. so the veil will lead them to Yeshua. in that way, it is good. shalom- john |
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from Sinai and transmitted it to Yoheshuah; Yoheshuah to the Shoftim; the Shoftim to the Nev'yim; and the Nev'yim transmitted it throughout Judea. It came BACK to Yohshuah HaMoshiach who retransmitted it to the rest of the world through Reb Sha'ul and Reb Cephas.
