Post by shimunkeefa on Apr 11, 2017 11:17:38 GMT -8
alon said:
Very interesting articles. Thanks.
Yes, I am aware there are many criticisms of the ESV. However that can be said of every translation out there. Part of the problem lies in the fact translating from one language to another they must try to get across what they THINK the author is saying. And too many times this is driven more by their own training and theology than by a real search for the truth. That said, I think that within the constraints of Christian works, the ESV and the NASB did a good job. Let’s look at an excerpt from the first article:
ESV: Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
RSV: he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities.
NRSV: Out of his anguish he shall see light; he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge. The righteous one, my servant, shall make many righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
In translating the verse there is some debate as to what the Servant sees: (1) the fruit of his work (KJV, NKJV, RSV), (2) “light” meaning life, resurrection, vindication etc (NRSV, NIV, NJB), or (3) something unspecified (ESV).
One of the criticisms the second article had was they bought the rights to the RSV and used it as a base. But note the change in the text. I think the second author was a bit disingenuous saying so little was changed. That small change puts the entire verse in a new light. This means everything following could be seen a bit differently as well. They did their homework on the ESV. And this is no different than what Dr. Goble did using the NASB as a base translation for the OJB NT.
Let’s look at this in the NASB:
Isaiah 53:11a (NASB) As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;
Notice the word “it” is italicized, and has a notation. The italics (you probably know) means that word is not in the manuscript, or may have been in others. So we go to the notation and see it says "Another reading is light.” So if you want to chew on the different meanings, it’s right there for you. Frankly I prefer just the ESV rendering here, but comparison is good. And I can always read the NASB omitting the word “IT." But I think both made the most honest attempts at a true and accurate rendering of scripture given they are Christian efforts.
I would love to see a good collaborative Messianic translation (by true Meshiachim) of the entire Bible done either as an interlinear or with references to key words in Hebrew. But that probably won’t happen in our lifetimes. But there is something to be said for digging out the truth for ourselves with the help of the Ruach.
So I obviously agree the ESV is a great translation. And yes, we also should be aware there are flaws and things percieved as flaws. But given what else is out there, it’s still one of the best. My opinion.
We really ought to put this up on the forum, if you want to put your message there. It’s the kind of give and take that could edify others. If you don’t want to, I could pull your links and just put up mine.
Dan
Very interesting articles. Thanks.
Yes, I am aware there are many criticisms of the ESV. However that can be said of every translation out there. Part of the problem lies in the fact translating from one language to another they must try to get across what they THINK the author is saying. And too many times this is driven more by their own training and theology than by a real search for the truth. That said, I think that within the constraints of Christian works, the ESV and the NASB did a good job. Let’s look at an excerpt from the first article:
ESV: Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
RSV: he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities.
NRSV: Out of his anguish he shall see light; he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge. The righteous one, my servant, shall make many righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
In translating the verse there is some debate as to what the Servant sees: (1) the fruit of his work (KJV, NKJV, RSV), (2) “light” meaning life, resurrection, vindication etc (NRSV, NIV, NJB), or (3) something unspecified (ESV).
One of the criticisms the second article had was they bought the rights to the RSV and used it as a base. But note the change in the text. I think the second author was a bit disingenuous saying so little was changed. That small change puts the entire verse in a new light. This means everything following could be seen a bit differently as well. They did their homework on the ESV. And this is no different than what Dr. Goble did using the NASB as a base translation for the OJB NT.
Let’s look at this in the NASB:
Isaiah 53:11a (NASB) As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;
Notice the word “it” is italicized, and has a notation. The italics (you probably know) means that word is not in the manuscript, or may have been in others. So we go to the notation and see it says "Another reading is light.” So if you want to chew on the different meanings, it’s right there for you. Frankly I prefer just the ESV rendering here, but comparison is good. And I can always read the NASB omitting the word “IT." But I think both made the most honest attempts at a true and accurate rendering of scripture given they are Christian efforts.
I would love to see a good collaborative Messianic translation (by true Meshiachim) of the entire Bible done either as an interlinear or with references to key words in Hebrew. But that probably won’t happen in our lifetimes. But there is something to be said for digging out the truth for ourselves with the help of the Ruach.
So I obviously agree the ESV is a great translation. And yes, we also should be aware there are flaws and things percieved as flaws. But given what else is out there, it’s still one of the best. My opinion.
We really ought to put this up on the forum, if you want to put your message there. It’s the kind of give and take that could edify others. If you don’t want to, I could pull your links and just put up mine.
Dan
Here is a an e-mail that I exchanged with Dan last evening, and this morning:
Shalom Dan,
Check this out about the ESV:
evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/search?q=ESV
And This:
domainthirtythree.com/2016/09/13/a-permanent-text-of-the-esv-bible-they-must-be-joking
If I knew that you needed another copy of the ESV, I could have given you one last Summer.
I gave away a brand new (almost) copy of the ESV Bible last August.
'The Comprehensive New Testament' that I mentioned is even better (I KNOW....it's hard to believe! lol) then the ESV!
You need to get a copy now while it's still reasonably cheap (it's about $16.00, or so). It's a *great* public reading New Testament. Go to Amazon.com and read the reviews.
I got a copy (of the first ESV) when the ESV first came into print, in about 1999 to 2001 (around there), and I have an ESV Study Bible, that I bought in 2009, and a large print edition ESV that I bought a year or so ago.
It really IS a great Bible!
A Really Happy Pesach (Passover) to Everyone!
Shalom In Messiah Yeshua, Shimun
