Peshitta/Peshitto

[Nachshon]

I haven't seen any threads dealing with this issue, so I was curious if anyone else has looked into the ancient Aramaic texts of the Brit Chadesha. There is a lot of documented evidence that the Greek texts are actually translations from the Peshitto. Any thoughts?

Shalom,
David

[Chizuk Emunah]

Well the ancient Greek was definitely translated from Aramaic and Hebrew texts. There is evidence however that the Peshitta went through latter revisions in order to agree with existing Greek texts. So as for the true original text, I would argue that Tatian's Diatessaron is the closest there is.

[Nachshon]

Yes, the Peshitta was later modified to more closely resemble the Greek. Those manuscripts are called the Peshitto. (We have no complete Peshitta. All we have of II&III John, II Peter, Jude, and Revelation are the Hellenized Peshitto versions. But with some critical editions we can attain virtually original purity.) Why do you say that Tatian's Diatessaron is the closest there is?

Shalom,
David

[Chizuk Emunah]

Why do you say that Tatian's Diatessaron is the closest there is?

Because it is the earliest surving text. I also have a theory that Tatian may have used The Gospel of the Hebrews as his source. It is still a theory at this point, but I believe it is definitely plausible.

[Nachshon]

This aramaicnt.com/ is a sight you might be interested to check out.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Sean]

Just a thought here, I was disappointed to see how George Lamsa's Modern New Testament from aramaic renders Acts 15:24. As it isn't interlinear, I was wondering if the Aramaic Peshitta really does render Acts 15:24 like the Textus Receptus or not.
Comments much appreciated.

[ninjaaron]

Having read substantial parts of the New Testament in Greek, and a bit in Aramaic, I can tell you that the Aramaic is definitely a translation of the Greek idiom (especially as preserved in the western text type), and not the other way around. In addition, the quotes from the Tanak agree with the LXX, not the Mazoritic text. In the New Testament, it is the sayings of Jesus and the reported speech of the Apostles in Acts that most strongly reflect a Hebraic idiom. Most narratives and direct discourse are more natural Greek. There are exceptions. Mark's Greek is fairly Semitic looking. Large portions of Revelation read like Hebrew, and certain turns of phrase in James are also impossible in proper Greek. The rest pretty much looks like normal Koine (except Luke and Hebrews, where they employ forms from Classical Greek, occasionally).

Sean:
The Peshitta, along with all other Aramaic texts does indeed have the clause concerning circumcision and observance that we find in the the TR (as well as the Majority text and the Western text, of which the Peshitta is a representative), against the Alexandrian text and the Vulgate.

So yes. It's there in the Peshitta.

[davidwiseman]

Aaron, the more Greek and Aramaic I learn, the more I am inclined to agree with you.
I find one fascinating thing in your note. You assume that a first century document written in Hebrew would follow a massoretic reading.

[ninjaaron]

Nov 16, 2009 20:58:38 GMT -8 davidwiseman said:

Aaron, the more Greek and Aramaic I learn, the more I am inclined to agree with you.

I find one fascinating thing in your note. You assume that a first century document written in Hebrew would follow a massoretic reading.

Good point you make there. Of course, the text of that age was probably not identical to the MT, but the texts we do have from that age (ie: the Vulgate, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Targumim, Theodotain and Aquilla's translations, Origin's transliteration, and the Samaritan Pentateuch, as well as the LXX) seem to give quite strong support to authority of the MT it the vast majority of cases. Of course, there are exceptions, particularly in I & II Samuel, as well as .Jeremiah

However, all that I really meant to say is that the idiom of the OT quotations in the Peshitta (even in the earliest editions we have) are clearly literal renderings of the Greek texts we have in the Septuagint. It is very easy to translate Hebrew literally into Aramaic. They are cognate languages. However, there are no signs that they did this.

Again, if one looks at the Old Testament in the Peshitta, it looks much more like the language of the LXX than looking at the Targumim (the Jewish translation from Hebrew into Aramaic), from which one can easily reconstruct the underlying Hebrew text word for word in most case.

So, that isn't to say that they would follow a masoritic reading, but I do think they would be syntacticly more reflective of a semitic tradition for OT quotations if they were originally composed in Aramaic.

[messianicmama]

My husband is into the Peshitta.

[shimunkeefa]

It's heading towards sundown here, but read this, and I'll discuss it more, very soon:

"The two outstanding characteristics of Nestorian anthropology are logical consequences of it's Dyophysite Christology, which emphasizes the human nature of Christ and his free will to fulfill the duties imposed on him by the Father. A peculiarity of this view is the consequent rejection of original sin and the conviction that the human person can violate divine law and turn away from God only out of free will............."

"The second distinctive feature of Nestorian anthropology derives from the first. Since human nature is essentially good and not, as Augustine believed, fundamentally bad, the resurrection of Christ opened the door for the human person to the recovery of Adam's prelapsarian nature--that is, to a return to the goodness of his own nature. Human nature is fundamentally good but can, nevertheless, be corrupted by it's weakness and led into error.
Continuing this life-affirming world-view was the theological vision of Issac of Nineveh, who was convinced that God would bring all living things, including the greatest sinners and even *demons* to perfection and bliss."   

'The Church of The East--An Illustrated History of Assyrian Christianity' By Christoph Baumer


OK, ALL of the Eastern Peshitta (and maybe the Western Peshitto too) translators thought along these lines. They were ALL Universalist's. If you don't know what this means, please, look it up!

And they STILL ARE. This includes Paul Younan, Andrew Gabriel Roth, And Dave Bauscher for sure.

OK, heavy article, with deep spiritual insight, into some of the ancient and current translations of the Peshitta/Peshitto.

I'll write more about it soon.   

Shalom & Happy Pesach/Passover,  Shimun


Shalom Everyone,

  Dan, George Lamsa (whose New Testament I have) was associated with:
    
1. The Association For Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce's old outfit).

2. The Way International, in New Knoxville, Ohio. Where he helped translate their massive 3 volume Aramaic New Testament (which I also have).

This translation is what James Trimm plagiarized his HRV (Hebrew Roots Version Bible) from.

3. The Unity School of Christianity, in Lee's Summit, Missouri.


ALL of these organizations are what we now refer to as "New Age". I probably don't need to tell you that though.

George Lamsa was allowed burial by The Holy Apostolic and Catholic Assyrian Church of the East, but 'just barely'.


He was the teacher of Janet ('Jan') Mageria.

But Jan Mageria saw (I believe) the problems with Lamsa's work, and distanced herself (to say it politely) from George Lamsa's work.

Of all the public teachers of the Aramaic New Testament, Jan Mageria is *the only one* that I actually trust.

Paul Younan and Andrew Gabriel Roth are two peas in a pod. So to speak. They both made a fortune from Andrew's AENT (Aramaic English New Testament).

Which is simply Paul Younan's four Gospels, and about 13 or 14 Chapters of Paul Younan's book of Act's.

The rest of Andrew's New Testament is from James Murdock's 18th Century Peshitto translation.


This was after Andrew Gabriel Roth *PROMISED* to be translating from "ancient Aramaic sources"..........Yeah, RIGHT!  lol 

This is *exactly the same thing* that James Trimm promised with his HRV, which Andrew Gabriel Roth made fun of, and called it; "The Horribly Ruined Version!"

This would be funny, if it wasn't all so !

Paul Younan lets anyone on his Peshitta forum including wiccans, and this my friend, is a FACT!

So, both Paul Younan and Andrew Gabriel Roth buy into spiritually what Issac of Nineveh said from my post from yesterday.

Warning, DANGER!

Dave Bauscher whom I know is also a confirmed Universalist, and has been for literally, YEARS. And EVERYONE will get into The Kingdom!

According to Dave!

He also believes that G-d the Father "DIED", when Yeshua was crucified. Come on now, that's just some man's belief, and not one thing more!

'The Restoration Scriptures' is very much a Sacred Name Bible, that use's a very shoddy kind of pseudo Hebrew, and is slavishly copied from George Lama's Bible, with plenty of KJV, thrown in for good measure.


Here's my take. 

If you are into "Aramaic Primacy". Stick with Jan Mageria's material, or else James Murdock's Peshitto, or John Wesley Etheridge's Peshitta (which in my opinion is very hard to read!).

There is one problem with Jan Mageria's 'Messianic' Peshitta. It use's "Yeshu" for the Assyrian "Eshoo" (Yeshua/Jesus).

If you know about "the Toldot Yeshu" and how's it's used by the Ultra-Orthodox (and Orthodox) Rabbi's to curse Yeshua with, there's the problem!
I would have gone with "Eshoo", which is how Yeshua sounds in Eastern Estrangelo Syriac, if I was Jan Mageria.

But aside from that one pretty large problem, Jan Mageria's Messianic Peshitta is the best of all the modern translations, in my opinion. And one of the cheapest!

Andrew Gabriel Roth was in Israel at at public gathering, and was asked to read from his OWN translation, he could not even get through one sentence in Hebrew, and finally the crowd started shouting; "Read it in English!". There are many huge spiritual problems with the AENT, but Andrew's stance of not telling the TRUTH, is the very worse one.


I'm honestly *NOT* trying to attack anyone here, but I think that the old adage of "Let the buyer beware!" is still in force, here in 2017.

For Yeshua's Kingdom, Shimun


































 

[alon]

Good information.

I have Lamsa's translation of the Peshita from the Aramaic. But I use it only as a comparative tool every once in a while; or if someone references it in a discussion. So it's good to know where the translators are coming from; what they believe.

There are some who only use the Peshita, believe Yeshua only spoke Aramaic, and eschew all other texts. Looking more closely at them they usually reveal themselves to hold some very unsound doctrines. I guess, start with the wrong template and the drawing will come out wrong somehow.

Dan C

edit: looks like I ave one less version for comparative study.

edit edit: I kept it on my shelf and still use it for comparison. I just trust Lamsa a bit less.

[shimunkeefa]

Here is Jan Mageria's Messianic translation of the Peshitta. If I remember you have to join scribd to read, but that's not really much work to get free online access to a New Testament"

www.scribd.com/document/97126823/Aramaic-Peshitta-New-Testament-Magiera

[librarylarry]

Shalom/Shlama/Shlomo/Salaam, The Dukhrana Biblical Research website has a 'Peshitta Tool' that enables you to see Dr. John W. Etheridge's English Peshitta translation, Dr. James Murdock's English Peshitta translation, Dr. George Lamsa's English Peshitta translation, Old Syriac Curetonian Gospels, Old Syriac Sinaitic Palimpsest, King James Version (KJV), Hebrew NT (Franz Delitzsch 11th Ed.), Latin Vulgate (Clementine Vulgate), and five different check boxes for Greek including Stephens' 1550 Textus Receptus combined with Scrivener's 1894 Textus Receptus, 2005 Byzantine Textform, Tischendorf 8th, Official Greek Orthodox Church NT, and Westcott-Hort 1881 combined with Nestle-Aland 27th variants.
The Crawford Codex page features transcriptions of the Four Western Epistles by Stephen P. Silver (2nd Peter, 2nd & 3rd John, and Jude), as well as the transcription, translation, and commentary of Revelation by Greg Glaser. Even though Syriac Revelation came late on the textual scene, its Torahcentric nature is amazing with words like menorah, shofar, and ephod, etc., being used throughout.
      Unfortunately, dukhrana.com could only acquire a couple of pages of the Yonan Codex for viewing which is a pity because it is hand-scribed in a very bold and beautiful Estrangelo script.            dukhrana.com/yonan/files/yonan_codex_yud_and_yud_alap-lowres.jpg
Dukhrana.com also has all 510 images of the Khabouris Codex, with the color-coded transcription and complete indexing being the work of Stephen P. Silver. The John Wesley Etheridge translation is placed beside each individual image of the original codex and its transcription box. The Khabouris Codex is an 11th century copy of a manuscript that was scribed during the Great Persecution of Shapur II (a Persian magnate).
    Searchable online lexicons include Carl Brockelmann's Lexicon Syriacum, S. J. Louis-Costaz's Syriac-French-English-Arabic Dictionary, William Jennings' Lexicon to the Syriac New Testament, Marcus Jastrow's A Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushlami, and the Midrashic Literature Volumes I & II, R. Payne Smith's
Thesaurus Syriacus, J. Payne Smith's (Mrs. Margoliouth) A Compendious Syriac Dictionary Founded Upon the Thesaurus Syriacus of R. Payne Smith, D.D., J. P. Margoliouth's Supplement to the Thesaurus Syriacus of R. Payne Smith, S.T.P., Hassan bar Bahlul's Syriac Lexicon (a 10th century work) Volumes 1 & 2, Toma Audo's Treasure of the Syriac Language Volume 1 (Alaph-Kaph) & Volume 2 (Lamadh-Taw), Bishop J. E. Manna's Chaldean-Arabic Dictionary, and Edmund Castell's Lexicon Syriacum (separated from his heptaglot lexicon of Hebrew, Chaldean, Samaritan, Syriac, Ethiopic, Arabic, and Persic, which took him and his assistants 18 years to complete working an average of 16-18 hours a day).
     The Dukhrana Analytical Lexicon of the New Testament makes use of the Syriac Electronic Data Retrieval Archive (SEDRA) by Dr. George A. Kiraz, distributed by the Syriac Computing Institute. Underneath the word search box are dottable circles for your choice of English word, Syriac word, Lexeme, Root, and Word ID Number.
The drop-down font box has 18 Syriac fonts to choose from and the font size box has 12 different sizes. Here is a webpage showing the transliteration table... dukhrana.com/lexicon/