Who will enter in?

[vickylee]

There is some scripture that has ummm... what's the word i'm looking for.... confused me for some time now. Hopefully someone here can help.

Rev. 22:14-15 "[[glow=red,2,300]Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood"[/glow]

I know there're more that say the same, but can't think of their location off the top of my head.

Here's the confusion: If the ones whose names are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire, who then is this sitting outside the gates?

What about the theif on the cross? So Jesus said he would be in paradise, where would he be inside the gates our outside?

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Here's the confusion: If the ones whose names are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire, who then is this sitting outside the gates?

The wages of sin separate us from G’d and His Kingdom. I believe this is the picture that we are seeing in the passage you have referenced. I believe it can be simply understood in this way; those whom are outside the kingdom gates in the end are separated from G’d. I believe total separation from G’d is equivalent to being present in the Lake Of Fire. We see a little more of a description from Yeshua in the following passage…

”And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Mat.8:11-12

So, we can see that in the above passage that the children of darkness are outside the gates of The Kingdom Of Heaven. In this place where they are cast out there is described as darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth (indicating torments). They become part of the Kingdom of Darkness, a.k.a Hell. I believe both passages are two ways of describing the same situation.

What about the thief on the cross? So Jesus said he would be in paradise, where would he be inside the gates our outside?

I believe that the thief would be in the gates as he would not be cast out into outer darkness and experience weeping and gnashing of teeth per Yeshua.

Shalom,

Reuel

[vickylee]

thank you for your fast reply and bringing in the other Scripture to shed light. Very much appreciated.

Okay, now another question then...

as i've been studying and reading Scripture about those who love and obey the and their blessings in heaven. What about those who accept Christ as Savior but do not have the love for the . That do not believe that we need to observe it? Where is their place? (can you tell i'm in discussion with other Believers in the Lord? )

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

What about those who accept Christ as Savior but do not have the love for the .

I believe that if they have truly accepted Messiah that their end state will reflect love for The Father’s . A few supporting passages…<br>
”For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
- James 2:26

”A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them .
- Ezekiel 36:26-27

”Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of G’d, and the faith of Yeshua.”
- Rev.14:12

”Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
- Rev.22:14

I believe mature faith in Yeshua The Messiah is inseparable from keeping G-d’s commandments.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Blake]

I believe those who keep the mitzvot of Elohim and the testimony of Yeshu shall enter into the eternal kingdom.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

[Chizuk Emunah]

I believe mature faith in Yeshua The Messiah is inseparable from keeping G-d’s commandments.

Absolutely. & Moshiach are inseparable. You can't have one without the other.

posted by vickylee
What about those who accept Christ as Savior but do not have the love for the . That do not believe that we need to observe it? Where is their place?

I'm sorry to say it, but they will be among those who are outside the gates.

I believe total separation from G’d is equivalent to being present in the Lake Of Fire.

I couldn't agree more. The Lake of Fire Yeshua referenced in Mattiyahu 10:28 was a euphemism. The actual word was Gei Hinnom (Valley of Hinnom), where the rubbish from Yerushalyim was burned. I don't believe he was referencing an actual place, but rather a state in which one was eternally separated from HaShem.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I don't believe he was referencing an actual place, but rather a state in which one was eternally separated from HaShem.

I wouldn't necessarily say that it is not a place, but I think we can both agree that we don't want to end up in that situation and be separated from G'd. Further discussion on this particular subject should probably take place in it's own thread.

Shalom achi,

Reuel

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Personally, I feel that those who do not keep will not be able to gain any true blessings in Heaven. By that I mean this. I believe that there exists Heaven and The World to Come, both of which are seperate. One (The World To Come) we will have power and tangible things and our work here is what blesses us there. However, in heaven we are all equals. I believe these people will have no great blessings in the World to Come, but will still join us in Heaven. The reason they get no blessings or stuffs is because they believe that there is no law and nothing for them to do; they believe that only what is in their mind is correct. Yet, this is a flawed ideal, because people in every society believe they are doing good things wether or not they are. So they go by thier own "law" which tells them something is good or bad, in which case they can justify any sin and one person is considered more pious than the other.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I don't think scripture supports universal salvation. Any supporting passages?

Shalom achi,

Reuel

[Mark]

There is another perspective that Scripture supports (this is not to say that Reuel's is not valid); but, using ther same Scriptures one might perceive that are those in the city (those who have committed their lives to obedience to ) in accordance with faith in Yeshua, there are those who have rejected Messiah who are condemned to the "Lake of Fire", and there are those who have accepted the gift of eternal life by faith; but are "saved, so as by fire (1st Cor. 3:15). Since in the New Jerusalem there is no sun nor moon, for Yeshua is the Light, and Yeshua is inside the city, those outside the city live in the shadow of the wall (outer darkness). These people are not condemned to Hell because they possess faith; but that faith was not demonstrated by godly obedience. They, therefore remain among ther nations outside the city, in outer darkness.

I don't spend too much time with this theology and can take it either way- I know that I want to be as close to the Messiah as I possibly can get. Matthew 5:17-19 tells us plainly that our closeness in the kingdom is directly correlated by our obedience to .

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Mark,

Shalom and welcome to Ahavat Elohim Messianic Discussion Forums! We are glad that you are here

These people are not condemned to Hell because they possess faith; but that faith was not demonstrated by godly obedience.

Is it possible to have faith without obedience?

Brachot b'Yeshua
(Blessings in Yeshua),

Reuel

[Mark]

No, it's not (Matthew 7:16-20); but there are certainly varying degrees of obedience, as we are told that in glory there will be varying degrees of reward, (Luke 16).

We discussed this during Shabbat, yesterday and the Rabbi reminded me of something else. Even within the Temple there are courts and degrees. One may only have access to the outer courts, while the most faithful will be granted access to the Most Holy Place.

Still, there are two verses that haunt me when I confer with my friends and family who have no love for the :

The first is in Luke 16:31 when Abraham said, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

The second is Proverbs 28:9 which states, "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer shall be abomination."

My Dad always said, "I'm sure glad it's God who keeps the books." We know that it is by grace through faith alone by which you are saved. He that believes is not condemned but he that believes not is condemned already... Yet, believing is more than just having the "password". Faith without works is dead. The good news is this doesn't change the fact of what Yeshua has commanded us, "To go into the nations and teach ALL THINGS I have commanded you." Yeshua taught . We will teach it as well; but there is no doubt at all, God's glorious kingdom will be far, far less inhabited than any of us are expecting. And many whom we hope to see there may likely not be there at all. (Matt. 25:31-46).

[Chizuk Emunah]

And many whom we hope to see there may likely not be there at all. (Matt. 25:31-46).

It's kind of to think of really. There are so many people whom we perceive as heros (Washington, Jefferson, Robert E. Lee, etc...) that, if they did not follow , they will not be granted access into the Messianic Kingdom. And of course, we can't forget all our friends and relatives who forsake as well. I really think Yom Teruah will be a serious jolt to Christians. There's going to be a lot of surprised people...

[BarvazGumy]

I have spent some time reading here this morning, and I admit that I am confused by much of what I have read. Perhaps it is merely my perception, but it seems that there is a lot of condemnation for those whose spiritual understanding has not reached what we perceive as a better one -- that of being Messianic. It appears that some are writing that only Messianics will be saved, while those outside our beliefs are lost.

When we talk about Christians rejecting , those in my circles basically intend not receiving the whole . However, no one of them would say that all believers who do not recognize the whole will be separated from G-d eternally. Are those who reject the whole errant? Yes. But who among us is perfect? I know I am not.

I have had years of acquaintances with many Christians, and many of them truly love G-d, serving Him to the best of their knowledge. When they follow the Scriptures, they do mainly what they have been taught is in their "new testament," and the main ideas they reject are Shabbat, eating kosher, and circumcision, following most of the other commands that can be followed today, outside the Land. Are these condemned to eternity without G-d because they do not understand?

I was saved in the Christian church. I do not doubt for one moment my salvation then nor now. How can I condemn, then, those in the church who claim salvation, whose lives have shown it for years? Am I perfect in my own understanding? No. I think that the possibility is very heavy that if those here scrutinized how I live , they could possibly find some idea or action that is not perfect, condemning me just as well. I do not think we have all "arrived" yet.

I think we have to be careful. We are saved by grace. What we do/don't do cannot save us.