MIA

[Rick]

I found a congregation that is 2-1/2hrs away from me,(the closest I have found, so far). They are affiliated with this organization;
www.messianicisrael.com/front.html
I have not heard of this one. Anyone here know anything about it?

Rick

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shabbat Shalom Rick.
Here's a clue as to what their theology is: The Messianic Israel Alliance began in 1999 as a gathering place for believers in Messiah who were awakening to their lost heritage as Israel.[/b]

If you do choose to approach them, I would do so carefully.

[Yitzchak]

rej1s said:

I found a congregation that is 2-1/2hrs away from me,(the closest I have found, so far). They are affiliated with this organization;
www.messianicisrael.com/front.html
I have not heard of this one. Anyone here know anything about it?

Rick

The tipoff is at the bottom of the page after they list all the officers, its founders are listed as Angus and Batya Wootten.

This couple along with a Messianic Rabbi in South Florida began the "Two House Movement"

In my estimation, this is an unscriptural group, which is similar to other movements like British Israelism. These groups believe that all Gentile believers are literally the lost tribes of Israel, and are not just spiritually, but literally Jews.

Hope this helps.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Rick]

Thank you very much for the info. I wondered why the congregation I was told about was not listed in any search on 'yashanet' That should have been a red flag. My search for local or at least nearby fellowship continues, Thanks guys.
Rick

[messimom]

"Two House Movement"

In my estimation, this is an unscriptural group, which is similar to other movements like British Israelism. These groups believe that all Gentile believers are literally the lost tribes of Israel, and are not just spiritually, but literally Jews.

All right, ya'll. I'm one of those quacks who believes in the two house movement. Let me ask a couple questions and clarify one note.

Why is the "one house" movement correct, and the two house not? What are the tenets of the one house theory, and why do you all so easily dismiss the two house theory?

And let me clarify, that Israelites/Ephraimites are NOT all Jews. I do not, nor have I ever claimed to be Jewish. But when the 10 tribes were dispersed, the tribes(except Judah) became filled with paganism, therefore losing their identities. I believe that a major part of the Messianic movement is a spiritual awakening of the original tribes. Yeshua came first for the "lost sheep of Israel" not just Judah. That is why I believe, that many if not most of the people in this day becoming observant believers are from the diaspora tribes, and those from Judah becoming believers in Yeshua. We know that there will also be "strangers" among us and some who are full-fledged gentiles will become saved/ observant. But, the majority, I believe, are from the dispersed tribes.

If you who do not believe in the two house theory think you have the answer, and can not only prove your understanding but also disprove the two house theory, then it would make for a great discussion and learning topic, but if not, I would appreciate not feeling put down every time the topic comes up.

I came here to learn and grow. So teach me.

Shabbat Shalom to all

Messimom

ps. I know this subject has been touched upon in another thread but never fully developed. Shall we pick it up again?

[Yitzchak]

Messimom,

Please forgive the offense. I should not assume that all of are the same beliefs here.

I do not consider you a quack, and I have some people from the movement that attend my congregation.

I think this would be a great topic of discussion, and would be happy to bring my perspective on this when I have more time.

Why don't you start a new thread, and let us know what it is that drew you to this, and what you see as the scriptural support for the "Two House" theory.


Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Chizuk Emunah]

Mark already started a thread regarding the Two-House Movement and perhaps that should be revived since the topic has come up again.

[messimom]

Please forgive the offense. I should not assume that all of are the same beliefs here.

Well, I did kind of jump. And you personally did not offend me. I just know that the majority of posters on the board who have made their beliefs in this area known are "one house" believers. But I have yet to see a good explanation as to why they feel that is the way to go and not two-house. I think a discussion on that would be very fruitful.

Here is the old original link for the two-house theory:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=events&action=display&n=1&thread=929

and the link for whether or not it is scriptural:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=76

Messimom

PS. Mercedes did an excellent job of conveying two-house theory.

[Yitzchak]

messimom said:

Please forgive the offense. I should not assume that all of are the same beliefs here.

Well, I did kind of jump. And you personally did not offend me. I just know that the majority of posters on the board who have made their beliefs in this area known are "one house" believers. But I have yet to see a good explanation as to why they feel that is the way to go and not two-house. I think a discussion on that would be very fruitful.

Here is the old original link for the two-house theory:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=events&action=display&n=1&thread=929

and the link for whether or not it is scriptural:

theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=76

Messimom

PS. Mercedes did an excellent job of conveying two-house theory.

Messimom,

I have read both of the links, and this was certainly not an exhaustive thead on the subject. Many of the points on both sides were not discussed.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think it is the responsibility of Messianic Judaism to prove itself true. It is not a new thing like "Two House"

Messianic Judaism has never identified itself as "One House." This is a term that has been given to it by those who follow the "Two House" theory, which is a realitively new teaching.

As a matter of fact, one of its main proponents is a Messianic Rabbi from my area. It is he, along with the Woottens, who are the main people behind this teaching and the MIA.

The reason why I asked you to perhaps start a new thread, or to share with us what drew you to this teaching, is so that we could discuss this based on your understanding of the scriptures.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[messimom]

I have read both of the links, and this was certainly not an exhaustive thead on the subject. Many of the points on both sides were not discussed.

Oh I agree. I just meant that Mercedes did a good initial job of explaining the basic tenents of the two-house theory.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think it is the responsibility of Messianic Judaism to prove itself true. It is not a new thing like "Two House"

Messianic Judaism has never identified itself as "One House." This is a term that has been given to it by those who follow the "Two House" theory, which is a realitively new teaching.

I don't take it the wrong way at all. I just had trouble defining "one house theory" so I kept calling it that, I guess it would be much better described as "the traditional understanding". My question more pertained to, if two-house theory describes the camps and divisions as so and so, then how does "traditional Messianic Judiasm" define and interpret those scriptures ? Just looking for clarification here. And how about this? Why shouldn't Messianic Judiasm have to prove itself true? Isn't that why we are here? Defining truth? Maybe the two-house theory is accurate. I don't want someone again going off in the tangent that "if this were the correct interpretation then how come it hasn't been understood for the last five thousand years?..." I say thats easy. There nothing "new" to be understood or learned here. Its just that as the time of Yeshua's return draws near more and more prophecy will be revealed and things which have previously made no sense will become clear. Just perhaps, things are being clarified.

The reason why I asked you to perhaps start a new thread, or to share with us what drew you to this teaching, is so that we could discuss this based on your understanding of the scriptures.

I see. I don't have time to go into this now, will write more later.

Shalom
Messimom

[Yitzchak]

Oh I agree. I just meant that Mercedes did a good initial job of explaining the basic tenents of the two-house theory.

As I said, I read both of the links, and yes Mercedes explained some of the basics. Without getting into the scriptural implications, I do have a problem with the basics.

For instance, this is from the MIA website:

"Those who once had lost their heritage now had a place they could call home; a place where both Jew and non-Jew could worship the God of Israel as equal brothers in Messiah."

The implication here is that the way that was opened for the Gentiles through HaShem does not somehow afford them the adoption as equal brothers in Messiah. What happend to there being no longe Male/Female, Jew/Greek in Messiah, but that we are all Echad.

I don't take it the wrong way at all. I just had trouble defining one house theory so I kept calling it that, I guess it would be much better described as the traditional understanding. My question more pertained to, if two-house theory describes the camps and divisions as so and so, then how does traditional Messianic Judiasm define and interpret those scriptures ?

This is actually an argument made by the "Two House" leadership for why they must be right. They claim that they have what they believe to be a proper biblical interpretation of the "Two Sticks", and that groups like the MJAA, and UMJC have not given them an alternative rendering of this prophecy, thus they must be right.

The fact that these groups have not responded with an alternative explanation of the prophecy does not automatically make their's correct.

Just looking for clarification here. And how about this? Why shouldn't Messianic Judiasm have to prove itself true? Isn't that why we are here? Defining truth?

What I was saying, is in light of the "Two House" movement being a relatively young movement, there is greater responsibility for them to prove their message. We can dispute the validity of Messianic Judaism if you like, however, there is great scriptural support for Messianic Judaism that come directly from the Words of Yeshua, as well as Rav Shaul. This is not true of "Two House."

Maybe the two-house theory is accurate. I don't want someone again going off in the tangent that if this were the correct interpretation then how come it hasn't been understood for the last five thousand years?... I say thats easy. There nothing new to be understood or learned here. Its just that as the time of Yeshua's return draws near more and more prophecy will be revealed and things which have previously made no sense will become clear. Just perhaps, things are being clarified.

I have chosen to answer for now with my impressions, and not get into the posting of scriptures just yet, but will try to as you post more.

The second fundamental flaw I see in this theory is the groups inability to prove that one is part of the lost tribes in any other but a spiritual way. In other words, they say that one just knows. There is no way to prove actual genealogical decsent from these tribes, one must just "know in their knower" so to speak.

I do not think that people of non-Jewish backgrounds being drawn to the Jewish Roots, and observance is tied to the restoration of the "Two Houses", but to the fact that this was HaShem's plan always. To draw all people to worship the G-d of Israel, and to observe His .

I see. I don't have time to go into this now, will write more later.

I look forward to seeing your posts on this subject.

Shalom,

Yitzchak