Advice and chesed

[alon]

There is a lot of discussion right now (one long thread in particular) about asking advice. And we are happy to give it. But I wanted to talk about what you are given here on this (or any) venue where we don’t know you or your circumstances first hand.

Matthew 12:1-7 (NASB) 1 At that [occasion] Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” 3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread [showbread], which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple [profane] the Sabbath and are innocent? 6 But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion [mercy, chesed], and not a sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

In this famous passage from Matthew Yeshua and His talmidim were walking through the grain (probably wheat) and being hungry they shelled some out and ate it. There are many interpretations of this. I’ve given one before that focused on the Oral Tradition. But since all of us struggle with this idea of what we can and cannot do on Shabbat I want to zero in on one aspect of this passage, chesed- lovingkindness, in this case of God for His people.

We’ve talked before about there being higher mitzvoth that might require us to break Shabbat. Life or death situations are obvious exceptions. So are the duties of priests, rabbis, pastors and others who work to make services possible for the rest of us. So might be preserving your livelihood and not leaving an animal to suffer. Yeshua spoke to this when He said:

Luke 14:5b (KJV) … Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

The donkey or ox would not only be suffering, but it would have represented a sizable investment effecting his livelihood for a farmer or merchant.

Indeed, all the biblical as well as Jewish traditional exceptions hang on one term here: כסד chesed, Gk ἔλεος eleos.

First we need to clear something up. Many translations and indeed most Christian doctrine interprets vs. 6 above as the King James does:

Matthew 12:6 (KJV) But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

“One greater” is generally understood to be Yeshua. But even Young’s Literal Translation, which usually leans to the KJV has it:

Matthew 12:6 (YLT) and I say to you, that a greater than the temple is here;

Many modern translations render this like the NASB above:

Matthew 12:6 (ESV) I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.

Some “thing,” not a person or deity, but a “thing.” That thing is stated in the next verse, and it is כסד chesed, ἔλεος eleos, mercy/lovingkindness. This verse is actually a quote from the OT:

Hosea 6:6 (ESV) For I desire steadfast love [Septuagint mercy, כסד chesed, Gk ἔλεος eleos] and not sacrifice,
    the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Another translation of chesed is compassion. “God desires compassion more than sacrifice.” God’s favor, His lovingkindness, His divine grace, His mercy towards us- His chesed is greater than the Temple, which since it stood at the time this was said could be taken literally. However it could also be taken figuratively to mean our worship in general and/or Shabbat.

So all the exceptions in the Oral Tradition, and every exception in halachic rulings to this day are based on God’s chesed towards us. But today there are many Meshiachim who are without the guidance of any Rabbi, Beit Din or other authority. Some come here for our opinions, and we can try and give good guidance. However we cannot know your circumstances other than what is given. An we are always going to be a bit conservative in our advice because we do not want to steer anyone into sin.

mystic, I apologize, but I am going to use you as an example. I can try, based on your posts to give you advice. But in reality, you could write me pages on life in NY City and I’d still have no idea of what it’s like to live there. I’ve been to New York, and I can’t understand why anyone, let alone millions would want to live there! Sorry, but I’m a country boy, and I just don’t get it.

This is why I often say we should all take the principles given and work from them. Chesed is a huge principle. I’ve often said “Don’t make this any harder than it has to be.” Your only means of travel might be to pay the toll and get on the subway. So if you are going to services, meeting with other Messianics, doing a mitzvah, or escaping a bad situation then you may have no choice but to break Shabbat by getting on the subway. I’ll tell you the principle is we don’t buy, sell, or conduct business on Shabbat. Chesed says there are exceptions. But it is unfortunately to you, who is not Rabbinically trained to decide on this exception. So do your best; make sure it is not a “want to” but a necessity and make your call. Ask forgiveness in case you were wrong, and in any event you did break Shabbat. But then move on and don’t agonize endlessly over it. That will eventually lead to your falling away.

Yeshua offered His disciples chesed as they walked through the grain fields on Sabbat. They’d been walking, they were hungry, and their Rabbi Yeshua allowed them to eat. This kind of divine chesed is a focal point in our relationship with our God. He doesn’t allow us absolute free reign, nor can we change anything in , but His chesed allows us exceptions to His . Our responsibility when enjoying this favor is not to abuse it.

Dan C

[mystic]

Jul 8, 2019 10:17:05 GMT -8 alon said:

Another translation of chesed is compassion. “God desires compassion more than sacrifice.” God’s favor, His lovingkindness,

mystic, I apologize, but I am going to use you as an example. I can try, based on your posts to give you advice. But in reality, you could write me pages on life in NY City and I’d still have no idea of what it’s like to live there. I’ve been to New York, and I can’t understand why anyone, let alone millions would want to live there! Sorry, but I’m a country boy, and I just don’t get it.

Yeshua offered His disciples chesed as they walked through the grain fields on Sabbat. They’d been walking, they were hungry, and their Rabbi Yeshua allowed them to eat. This kind of divine chesed is a focal point in our relationship with our God. He doesn’t allow us absolute free reign, nor can we change anything in , but His chesed allows us exceptions to His . Our responsibility when enjoying this favor is not to abuse it.

Dan C

Absolutely no apologies needed here Dan.

I too am a country boy which is why my dream is to live on a farm but my family here will not leave the city so I would need to live there alone. This is why I am seeking to spend time on a farm or in a secluded park close by on Sabbath, if that is all I can get.

Your words "God desires compassion more than sacrifice" and "make sure it is not a “want to” but a necessity". You've hit the nail on the head with this, first time I am coming across this statement and it directly addresses my situation here. These things I am torn on. When the family here is hanging out on a Saturday they expect me to hangout with them and to play music for them, if I don't they are not happy. Feeling sorry for them I play the music for them and sit with them trying my very best not to indulge in any form of debauchery and I ask God for forgiveness.

Then regarding going to the park or farm, I can't honestly say that I absolutely have to so not sure if it is a necessity. I do need it to destress and get away from this household for a while.

[alon]

This is why I always tell you it is up to you. And don't make this hard on yourself. I'm not giving you permission to break Shabbat- I can't. What I am telling you is there are instances when we can. I give you the principles, concepts, and even some examples. But only you can determine what is and is not a necessity in your circumstances. One of the great gifts of being a believer is we learn to work from principles, not lists. That is something most people today never learn, and it's an invaluable life's lesson in everything we do.

Dan C

[mystic]

Jul 14, 2019 8:31:01 GMT -8 alon said:

 One of the great gifts of being a believer is we learn to work from principles, not lists. That is something most people today never learn, and it's an invaluable life's lesson in everything we do.

Dan C

That describes me to the letter as I am always seeking or prefer to have a list of do's and don'ts to ease my confusion and undecided nature in everything I do regarding Godly matters. Yes your advice is well taken [thank you!] and I am making slow progress in trying to learn to apply principles in all situations. I am a work in progress.

[mystic]

Hey guys, I am only now noticing this scripture regarding the Shabbat:

"See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day" (Ex. 16:29).

Can you tell me why it is ok then for Shabbat observers to go for a "stroll" on Shabbat please? That line suggests me that people should not leave their homes for ANY reason whether going to Synagogue or visiting the sick e.t.c regardless of any context that I am seeing? I think that scripture is very clear.

[Elizabeth]

Jul 19, 2019 3:24:41 GMT -8 mystic said:

Hey guys, I am only now noticing this scripture regarding the Shabbat:

"See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day" (Ex. 16:29).

Can you tell me why it is ok then for Shabbat observers to go for a "stroll" on Shabbat please? That line suggests me that people should not leave their homes for ANY reason whether going to Synagogue or visiting the sick e.t.c regardless of any context that I am seeing? I think that scripture is very clear.

The context is gathering bread so I understand it as they were leaving their place to gather bread. I generally understand the Shabbat commandment that if I leave my place, it will be about G-d based on the commandment to have a holy convocation (Lev 23) but in context of to also rest and not work.

To keep a holy convocation (if we are blessed enough to be able to find one in our area) requires we leave our place. Yeshua attended services on the Sabbath so we know it's not about just not leaving your house. I also think rabbinic Judaism has a different idea of "place" then you do, but I think in this instance I do as well. For example, I go outside to enjoy the day, and I go for walks around my neighborhood or to a park.

I don't drive unless I can find a holy convocation, but I have went to watch the sunset with my family when we are doing well because I feel like that's as close as I can get to a holy convocation. At least we're united and in awe of His creation. I will also drive to visit a person who can't leave their place with G-d in my heart because I see Yeshua acting in such a way on Sabbath, and that is something I can very easily do, though I can't easily go to a holy convocation.

Maybe that's G-d'a way of making sure someone isn't being left out because even if I could go and things were perfect for me, they still couldn't. That's where I feel led to. People are sick, alone, and in need even on the Sabbath so though it's supposed to be a perfect day on some level, it's not on another. That's where the mercy but not sacrifice admonition gives us so much to consider.

What can you do to make the day more like what He considers perfect? I think if what we come up with is too cumbersome, confining, or selfish then we've missed it. But G-d is patient and I've missed a lot because things aren't set up for us in this life to be easy and obvious and also because He is ALWAYS teaching. Our growth and understanding will never catch up. Maybe if I had a community, I would forget those who don't. There's always a G-dly purpose in our situation, and you're better off guessing one even if it's wrong than just settling with its all just wrong because then at least you're looking for it. He will act in mercy when someone's doing their best according to what they know about Him, even if they're wrong. Probably everything we do is partly wrong because we don't have complete understanding, but in the least He will give me more understanding if I am wrong. The reason I'll do it is because I really don't believe I am. I know what's in my heart, and therefore I can trust Him to help me in mercy regardless.

[mystic]

Hmmn, great points and yes I tend to take things literally so just as you've stated "place" means something different to me.

[alon]

We noted that Mat 12:7 is a quote from Hos 6:6. Here is a principle to remember:

Whenever a New Testament writer or speaker quotes the Old Testament, they want you to go back and read that quote, and indeed the entire passage in context. Hosea was a prophet who was instructed by God to marry a prostitute. She kept sinning, and he kept forgiving her. This mirrored the Hebrew people and God. All through the book of Hosea God keeps accusing then condemning Israel and Judah for their many sins. But throughout God calls them back to Him. Chapter 6 is interesting:

Hosea 6  (ESV)
1 “Come, let us return to the Lord;
for he has torn us, that he may heal us;
he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
3 Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.”
4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes early away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers,
tracked with blood.
9 As robbers lie in wait for a man,
so the priests band together;
they murder on the way to Shechem;
they commit villainy.
10 In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;
Ephraim's whoredom is there; Israel is defiled.
11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.
When I restore the fortunes of my people,

This is actually the chapter I think God speaks the kindest to His people. He calls them back, but laments they soon fall away again. In fact, instead of accusing He seems to be lamenting their wrongdoing. Verse 6 is the central verse here, close to the center of the book, and it deals with the central heme of the entire book: chesed. God, in His infinite grace and mercy takes His own back time and again. 

Now this is not an excuse to sin. Far from it. But it does give us hope as when we are trying and we mess up, how much more will His mercy be poured out on us! He only asks of us what He gives to us in abundance: knowledge, grace and mercy. Love towards Himself which manifests in us as love to our fellow man. He is our hope, the central focus of our lives.

The Jews were in exile when this was written. There was no Temple then. But always there existed something greater than the Temple. It was there when Adam and Chava sinned, when Noach got drunk, when the faith of the patriarchs failed, when the children of Israel failed to take the land and when Moshe struck the rock. All through the Bible it was there: chesed. From od to us: chesed. And from us to others: chesed. And from us to God: chesed. Not just "love," but a type of love that produces. Mercy, kindness, help, relationship, knowledge, understanding, trust, community, and all the things that make life worth living. Not the feelings based love the world gives us, or the emotional pap doled out by some churches. But a love that does something; that produces results! That is chesed!

And you thought (probably because you were taught) it was just and argument about a few men eating wheat on the Sabbath ...

Dan C

[mystic]

I am reading the Book of Hosea but not quite clear why God's intent for this. Was it that he heeded to have Gomer concieve Jezreel just so Jezreel could be made a human sacrifice for God to end the kingdom of the house of Israel?

[mystic]

Jul 19, 2019 4:15:47 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

The context is gathering bread so I understand it as they were leaving their place to gather bread. I generally understand the Shabbat commandment that if I leave my place, it will be about G-d based on the commandment to have a holy convocation (Lev 23) but in context of to also rest and not work.

To keep a holy convocation (if we are blessed enough to be able to find one in our area) requires we leave our place. Yeshua attended services on the Sabbath so we know it's not about just not leaving your house. I also think rabbinic Judaism has a different idea of "place" then you do, but I think in this instance I do as well. For example, I go outside to enjoy the day, and I go for walks around my neighborhood or to a park.

I don't drive unless I can find a holy convocation, but I have went to watch the sunset with my family when we are doing well because I feel like that's as close as I can get to a holy convocation. At least we're united and in awe of His creation. I will also drive to visit a person who can't leave their place with G-d in my heart because I see Yeshua acting in such a way on Sabbath, and that is something I can very easily do, though I can't easily go to a holy convocation.

I hear what you're saying loud and clear Elizabeth. Sabbath to me should be a day of peace and tranquility but it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to observe Sabbath in this house in the right way. If it's not the people hanging out outside on a Saturday evening so whenever I go outside I have no choice but to be among them it's the situation inside I have to deal with too. For example, my room is in the middle between my ex, my boys and my mom's rooms.

While I am trying to pray or do bible studies I have to listen to "wine up" and "tempted to touch" songs from by sons room. Also the worst part is having to listen to all the filth from the local news coming from the ex's tv. This is why I need the escape from this house so I see that I will have no choice but to do something ANYTHING at all on the outside somewhere just to keep my sanity and also try to remain in a peaceful state of mind on the Sabbath. 

So anywhere I can go I would need to take transportation and have to pay for something or the other in the process. I understand what Dan has told me and I may have to make use his advice and just do it and ask God to forgive me. I have been praying for a long time now for God to lead me to a Sanctuary somewhere close by on the Sabbath where I can go whenever I need to to get some peace, so far he hasn't answered. If it's one thing I can ask you guys to pray for is for me to find this sanctuary otherwise I am worried that one day on the Sabbath I will blow up at someone here!

[Elizabeth]

Here's the things I avoid regarding the outside world that has helped me narrow things down the most - using money and causing people to work.

Your situation I s different than mine, but the commute issue kind of equals out in my mind if we're discussing our means of including ourselves in a holy convocation. I will have to drive and you'll have to pay money to be driven. We're both just doing our best with our situations to keep a commandment of the Sabbath. It's unavoidable, and G-d knows that.

I'm curious as you live in NYC. It seems there should be a messianic synagogue for you to go to, and that would solve these issues I think. Get on the bus and go if it's not walking distance. Have you looked into any?

Is your autistic son the one drawn to that music, and have you asked whichever son it is to stop listening to that music? I guess I'm wondering if you feel you can talk about these things with him/them and what's the response if you do.

My instinct is to bring your autistic son with you if and once you find a G-dly synagogue and if he'll go. I just think you may be able to counter the influences he's surrounded by more than you realize because on some level autistic people are more easily influenced. It's a weakness, but a group of loving, hopeful, sincere hearted believers is a powerful and enduring influence. You could use that weakness to kind of redeem the time if you can include him with a compassionate group of G-dly believers who practice what they preach and want people to do well.

[Elizabeth]

Jul 20, 2019 3:48:35 GMT -8 mystic said:

I am reading the Book of Hosea but not quite clear why God's intent for this. Was it that he heeded to have Gomer concieve Jezreel just so Jezreel could be made a human sacrifice for God to end the kingdom of the house of Israel?

I need to reread myself to understand the context of your question. The only information I can give you that I know you need to read it rightly is that the whole book is about G-d's relationship with Israel and how He redeems them even in their unfaithfulness.

[alon]

Jul 20, 2019 6:55:55 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Jul 20, 2019 3:48:35 GMT -8 mystic said:

I am reading the Book of Hosea but not quite clear why God's intent for this. Was it that he heeded to have Gomer concieve Jezreel just so Jezreel could be made a human sacrifice for God to end the kingdom of the house of Israel?

I need to reread myself to understand the context of your question. The only information I can give you that I know you need to read it rightly is that the whole book is about G-d's relationship with Israel and how He redeems them even in their unfaithfulness.

Elizabeth, that is exactly right.

mystic, the phrase "human sacrifice" is a poor choice, since human sacrifice is proscribed in Judaism. Jezreel was just a byproduct of the marriage which shows that everything we do has consequences, either good or bad. The prophet Hosea is a metaphor for God, and Gomer is a metaphor for the unfaithful Hebrew nation. Their marriage is a metaphor for the nation's relationship with God. It just builds a picture for them and us. 

Like Elizabeth, I still wonder why you cannot find a decent Messianic assembly in all of NYC. Perhaps a good way to spend your Sabbaths would be to visit various MJ synagogues around the city. You can narrow your search online, then go visit what is left. And if you have to take the subway, so be it. But if you find one where they have Oneg it will get you out of the ouse most of the day and you'll be with like minded believers. 

Dan C

[mystic]

Jul 20, 2019 6:48:58 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Your situation I s different than mine, but the commute issue kind of equals out in my mind if we're discussing our means of including ourselves in a holy convocation. I will have to drive and you'll have to pay money to be driven. We're both just doing our best with our situations to keep a commandment of the Sabbath. It's unavoidable, and G-d knows that.

I'm curious as you live in NYC. It seems there should be a messianic synagogue for you to go to, and that would solve these issues I think. Get on the bus and go if it's not walking distance. Have you looked into any?

Is your autistic son the one drawn to that music, and have you asked whichever son it is to stop listening to that music? I guess I'm wondering if you feel you can talk about these things with him/them and what's the response if you do.

My instinct is to bring your autistic son with you if and once you find a G-dly synagogue and if he'll go. I just think you may be able to counter the influences he's surrounded by more than you realize because on some level autistic people are more easily influenced. It's a weakness, but a group of loving, hopeful, sincere hearted believers is a powerful and enduring influence. You could use that weakness to kind of redeem the time if you can include him with a compassionate group of G-dly believers who practice what they preach and want people to do well.

Last year I had looked into MJ synagogues here which is not close by but also I am not sure all MJ's share the same principles so that in itself does make me feel comfortable. I like the online one Dan linked me to but I don't expect any here would be the same. I think New Yorkers generally tend to thing differently than people elsewhere for whatever reason. At any rate that would be an option for what, one or two hours and would not solve my issue which is observing Sabbath in this house.

Yes my Autistic younger son mike is the one playing the music but which Autistic 20 year old can you tell what music to play?? Remember they usually don't have the reasoning of the average person. Far as God is concerned mike gave up believing in God 5 years ago after going through all of the hospitalizations issues for the year and a half. I cant' blame him, if MOST of the caregivers [Parents] who come to my support group for help don't want to even hear the word "God" mentioned, how can we expect the Special Needs kids to think otherwise?



 

[Elizabeth]

Jul 20, 2019 7:28:13 GMT -8 mystic said:

Jul 20, 2019 6:48:58 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Your situation I s different than mine, but the commute issue kind of equals out in my mind if we're discussing our means of including ourselves in a holy convocation. I will have to drive and you'll have to pay money to be driven. We're both just doing our best with our situations to keep a commandment of the Sabbath. It's unavoidable, and G-d knows that.

I'm curious as you live in NYC. It seems there should be a messianic synagogue for you to go to, and that would solve these issues I think. Get on the bus and go if it's not walking distance. Have you looked into any?

Is your autistic son the one drawn to that music, and have you asked whichever son it is to stop listening to that music? I guess I'm wondering if you feel you can talk about these things with him/them and what's the response if you do.

My instinct is to bring your autistic son with you if and once you find a G-dly synagogue and if he'll go. I just think you may be able to counter the influences he's surrounded by more than you realize because on some level autistic people are more easily influenced. It's a weakness, but a group of loving, hopeful, sincere hearted believers is a powerful and enduring influence. You could use that weakness to kind of redeem the time if you can include him with a compassionate group of G-dly believers who practice what they preach and want people to do well.

Last year I had looked into MJ synagogues here which is not close by but also I am not sure all MJ's share the same principles so that in itself does make me feel comfortable. I like the online one Dan linked me to but I don't expect any here would be the same. I think New Yorkers generally tend to thing differently than people elsewhere for whatever reason. At any rate that would be an option for what, one or two hours and would not solve my issue which is observing Sabbath in this house.

Yes my Autistic younger son mike is the one playing the music but which Autistic 20 year old can you tell what music to play?? Remember they usually don't have the reasoning of the average person. Far as God is concerned mike gave up believing in God 5 years ago after going through all of the hospitalizations issues for the year and a half. I cant' blame him, if MOST of the caregivers [Parents] who come to my support group for help don't want to even hear the word "God" mentioned, how can we expect the Special Needs kids to think otherwise?



 

Why do you think they don't want to hear the name "G-d"? 

You have some issues you need to work out with G-d mystic.  There is no excuse for anyone  to turn their back on G-d, and blame G-d.  Just because it's normal to experience that doesn't mean we accept it, from ourselves or anyone else. We can understand it because we all struggle to make sense of an unfair life, but we need to call it out for what it is - rebellion.  and it's hurtful to G-d. 

Your son's only hope is G-d, and you need to get on G-d's side in this for both of your sakes. You're wavering  I think because you need to work through some painful stuff of your own between Him and you based on this post.  I don't think you realize how serious it is, or that you're aligning with evil when you're excusing hate and hostility toward G-d even if you're convinced it's based on compassion. 

I'll tell you right now that when you're dealing with anyone who gets hostile over the mention of G-d or of His name or just a reference to Him in anyway, you're dealing with Satan who is acting in that person's heart and mind in a way that person probably can't even understand. 

G-d can get through to your son. He is the only one Who can in any deep, long-lasting way. You can discuss G-d with Him and make observations about the truth in love and truth, you dont have to argue and you don't have to get your way.  But you can offer a choice, and this is something I've seen can help open hearts as long as you listen with compassion but real understanding that you're dealing with evil acting in a way that person doesn't even realize underneath it all.

You can at least offer a choice to witness a G-dly alternative. But if you sit with a hard heart and blame G-d over what evil is doing, what can He do with you?

It sounds like you're the only one trying to involve G-d in your home situation, so that's why I'm asking this harsh sounding question. Because I think you do want Him to use you and act to save, and so I think you will really regret not dealing with whatever is going on that is causing you to on some level treat G-d like the enemy.  It's coming through in this post.

You don't have to blame your son, but that doesn't then mean just blame G-d.  Do you believe that there is a spiritual adversary, hasatan, who works against our good and exists with the sole purpose in his heart to separate us from G-d and hurt Him? I ask because that's who should be getting the blame, and I think maybe you do need someone to blame.